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Thread: Reconstruction of British Mesolithic man using DNA data 🇬🇧17 days old

  1. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by WitoldPilecki View Post
    Like some light remains in Motala?
    Would you like to further explain your point? What are you saying about some remains in Motala?

  2. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Ok. I was actually primarily interested in your views on the papers I linked to. The counterintuitive position of Mesolithic Europeans (more in the direction of Africans than the late Upper Palaeolithic sample is) is pretty much established.

    In my previous post I compared Mesolithic Europeans with late Upper Palaeolithic Europeans (20-10ky old), not with the earliest Upper Palaeolithic Europeans, like Oase. (Although a sample from an older period [30-20ky old] was also included). So, we really are dealing with a population that not only fails to continue the trend of cold adaptation, but reverses it. This is weird, because there are huge cold adaptation changes in between the Upper Palaeolithic and late Upper Palaeolithic Europeans. So, most of the cold adaptation happened in this period (30-10ky). The pooled Mesolithic sample (10-6ky) shows no further evidence of changes in this direction.

    You can see it in the data of the paper below. The author doesn't really point it out and discuss it, but it's all over his data.

    Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...47248496901116
    Hey, you wouldn't happen to have access to that paper you linked, I tried to open the link but it seems I need to pay. Based on my reading of the abstract though, it seems to be saying that Early Upper Paleolithic Europeans have clear African body proportions, while Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) and Mesolithic (MES) humans are more cold adapted and cluster in the direction of modern day Europeans.

    If I understand your position correctly, its that Mesolithic humans from Europe are less cold adapted than the Late Upper Paleolithic Europeans, which you rightly point out does sound counter-intuitive and could very well be indicative of admixture into Mesolithic Europeans from a more Southern source, but the article you linked me isn't public access so I can't really provide an opinion on the paper itself.

    While searching for a public access article of the paper you linked, I did come across this article though https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10222169 which does seem to broadly argue the same thing, that Upper Paleolithic Europeans seem to possess African affinities in body proportions, which then become more cold adapted into the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods.

    If you could link to a open access study comparing Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic period Europeans specifically, that would be greatly appreciated and I could give you a more substantive opinion on the idea of African gene flow into Mesolithic Europeans causing their body proportions to be shifted the way they are.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to nee4speed111 For This Useful Post:

    NonFingo (2018-02-16)

  4. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by nee4speed111 View Post
    Hey, you wouldn't happen to have access to that paper you linked, I tried to open the link but it seems I need to pay. Based on my reading of the abstract though, it seems to be saying that Early Upper Paleolithic Europeans have clear African body proportions, while Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) and Mesolithic (MES) humans are more cold adapted and cluster in the direction of modern day Europeans.

    If I understand your position correctly, its that Mesolithic humans from Europe are less cold adapted than the Late Upper Paleolithic Europeans, which you rightly point out does sound counter-intuitive and could very well be indicative of admixture into Mesolithic Europeans from a more Southern source, but the article you linked me isn't public access so I can't really provide an opinion on the paper itself.

    While searching for a public access article of the paper you linked, I did come across this article though https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10222169 which does seem to broadly argue the same thing, that Upper Paleolithic Europeans seem to possess African affinities in body proportions, which then become more cold adapted into the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods.

    If you could link to a open access study comparing Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic period Europeans specifically, that would be greatly appreciated and I could give you a more substantive opinion on the idea of African gene flow into Mesolithic Europeans causing their body proportions to be shifted the way they are.
    Yes, that sums it up. Although I should point out that I don't think this pull applies to Mesolithic Europe as a whole. Based on other studies, I suspect that there are some outliers in the Mesolithic sample that are mainly driving the gravitation towards the African samples. Mainly Teviec (Mesolithic France) and Cheddar Man, but I don't know enough about the other samples to say for sure. The author only gives the raw data in his thesis (which I don't have), so it's difficult to say which Mesolithic samples are driving the results, and which aren't. Also, as I said throughout this thread, I actually think that this geneflow happened during the postglacial, which predates the Mesolithic. See the sources I posted here. So, these Mesolithic samples may simply be reflecting admixture that happened some generations before the Mesolithic. If that's the case, the way Holliday pools his samples into late Upper Palaeolithic (20-10kya) and Mesolithic (10-6kya) groups could bias the actual degree of difference between admixed Mesolithic Europeans and relatively unadmixed Mesolithic Europeans with a more direct line of descent from older Europeans.

    But to answer your question, yes, I have the paper. I got it from a friend some time ago. Back then it was behind a paywall, so it wouldn't surprise me if it still is. Here are some screenshots of the most relevant data:

    Samples and the measurements used to assess bodyplan:
    Spoiler: 




    The actual PCAs and dendrograms with complete bodyplan analysis:
    Spoiler: 









    If you PM me an email address I can send you the full paper. I’m locked out of my dropbox account atm, so I can’t upload it that way.

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    beyoku (2018-02-16), nee4speed111 (2018-02-17)

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    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-modern-Briton some excellent posts made there by jeanl. The jews there are in process of "cleaning up the thread".

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