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Thread: The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages185 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itoli View Post
    Happy Birthday btw lol
    Thanks!! When I made the first comment I thought they were only referring to E-M81/E-M35 and NOT flipping E-M2...

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    "Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans- Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3- M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration.Indeed,our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52].

    It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56].
    The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3- M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in an- cient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Depends which prehistoric North Africa you mean. There's a preprint here saying that Neolithic North Africans (you know, the ones who replaced the hunter-gatherers there), were fully West Eurasian. Makes sense.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/21/191569

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Reading full study and yea this is a GOOD Birthday gift!
    Yes. And Happy Birthday!

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    Just some notes on E1b1a's antiquity in North Africa. Mofos though that was Afrocentric BS. And for my next trick yall going to see a future study tying yet to be found Senegambian Lactose persistence markers with Nilo-Saharan and Nilotic ones and a common NS/NK autosomal Sub Stratum making "Kongo-Saharan" a genetic reality. Stay tuned.

    As far a criticism of the study. Al the A estimates look too young. I think this paper is almost a non Starter with the exclusions of Sudanese Lineages. Much of the events in the Eastern Sahara deals with populations that would start from or end in Sudan. Without seeing Sudanese lineages and where they fit in Phylogeny we dont quite know the SSA or NA provenance of certain lineages. Because IMO MUCH of the diversity dont look North East African, it looks central and Eastern Saharan.....or even ancient Western Saharan with a visible remnant in the center and a termination in the East. This is the Case with the phylogeny of A. With the Phylogeny of E1. With B and the Early B and B2 found the Chad/Niger ..also looking the case for M78. I will not go on.

    As for M78. What is happening with the Southern Egyptians samples? MIA? I call conspiracy. Also not buying Horn to Central Saharan mediated V32 migration. Not at that age. 8kya...perhaps, accompanying L3f~, 5-6kya though, nah. But as they note the V32 clades look intermingled..,,,probably because hey are missing Sudanese. It think its a pity they left E1a but more importantly the B2a and E2b1 analysis, those are the real sleepers, E1a is self explanatory. M123 dont look Saharan so I understand its dismissal. I wish there was more anthropology in the article....even more linguistic connections. I wish there were more Sudanese samples, particularly Central Sudanese to see if there is a continuation of E-M2 paucity.

    Ultimately the most telling image IMO is figure 3A when it comes down to who was where FIRST. NS seems more associated with time depth and geography vs Hapolgroup.

    IMO (spitting some bullshit.) - The earliest M78 and A sub-lineages seem NS related and correspond to the beginning of the Wet phase. I envision Mesolithic Khartoumians, Sahabans, Wavy line potters et al as A/M78 NS's. AA on OTOH is related to M123 movements associated with the Red Sea Coast. Later M78's are simply language switchers. M2's are Early Northern Big game hunters. B's are Extreme early hunters and, NS language switchers and or current Isolate speakers. Still unsure of the identity of Aqualithic folks, there is no reason why they still can be B2a's.

    https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/imag...02728-mmc8.mp4
    Vid source.

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    not all m2 some branches of it are native to north africa

    which indeed is very good and informative study

    It is known that the geographic distribution of E-M2 in sub-Saharan Africa has been heavily influenced by the recent (< 3 kya) Bantu expansion [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17] and this is mirrored by the high frequencies of several E-M2 sub-clades among the Bantu people, in particular E-U290 and E-U174 (Additional file 1: Table S5 and Additional file 2: Figure S4). However, we found clues as to the role of the last Green Sahara considering the phylogeography of the E-M2 sub-clades in northern Africa. The coalescence age of the lineages harbouring northern and sub-Saharan chromosomes predates the onset of the arid conditions, falling between 11.03 kya (coalescence age of E-Page66) and 4.49 kya (the time estimate of the most recent clade harbouring a relevant proportion of northern African samples, i.e. E-V5280), during the last Green Sahara. After this time frame, we observed clades restricted to the north or to the south of the Sahara. In this context, although the large majority of the geographically restricted lineages come from sub-Saharan regions, we also found two northern African-specific clades, namely E-V5001 and E-V4990. E-V5001 has only been found in Egypt, is one of the sister clades within the E-M4727 multifurcation and coalesced at 3.88 kya. E-V4990 is a Moroccan clade dated to < 4.49 kya (the time estimate of the upstream node). Interestingly, it is the terminal branch of a nested topology, which divides western Africa from Morocco. We found a relevant proportion (~ 22 %) of African-American subjects belonging to the E-M2 haplogroup (Additional file 1: Table S5). These groups have been heavily influenced by the Atlantic slave trade, which took place between the XV and XIX centuries and of which the source populations were mainly sub-Saharan people. Consistent with the autosomal
    the killer look :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Just some notes on E1b1a's antiquity in North Africa. Mofos though that was Afrocentric BS. And for my next trick yall going to see a future study tying yet to be found Senegambian Lactose persistence markers with Nilo-Saharan and Nilotic ones and a common NS/NK autosomal Sub Stratum making "Kongo-Saharan" a genetic reality. Stay tuned.

    As far a criticism of the study. Al the A estimates look too young. I think this paper is almost a non Starter with the exclusions of Sudanese Lineages. Much of the events in the Eastern Sahara deals with populations that would start from or end in Sudan. Without seeing Sudanese lineages and where they fit in Phylogeny we dont quite know the SSA or NA provenance of certain lineages. Because IMO MUCH of the diversity dont look North East African, it looks central and Eastern Saharan.....or even ancient Western Saharan with a visible remnant in the center and a termination in the East. This is the Case with the phylogeny of A. With the Phylogeny of E1. With B and the Early B and B2 found the Chad/Niger ..also looking the case for M78. I will not go on.

    As for M78. What is happening with the Southern Egyptians samples? MIA? I call conspiracy. Also not buying Horn to Central Saharan mediated V32 migration. Not at that age. 8kya...perhaps, accompanying L3f~, 5-6kya though, nah. But as they note the V32 clades look intermingled..,,,probably because hey are missing Sudanese. It think its a pity they left E1a but more importantly the B2a and E2b1 analysis, those are the real sleepers, E1a is self explanatory. M123 dont look Saharan so I understand its dismissal. I wish there was more anthropology in the article....even more linguistic connections. I wish there were more Sudanese samples, particularly Central Sudanese to see if there is a continuation of E-M2 paucity.

    Ultimately the most telling image IMO is figure 3A when it comes down to who was where FIRST. NS seems more associated with time depth and geography vs Hapolgroup.

    IMO (spitting some bullshit.) - The earliest M78 and A sub-lineages seem NS related and correspond to the beginning of the Wet phase. I envision Mesolithic Khartoumians, Sahabans, Wavy line potters et al as A/M78 NS's. AA on OTOH is related to M123 movements associated with the Red Sea Coast. Later M78's are simply language switchers. M2's are Early Northern Big game hunters. B's are Extreme early hunters and, NS language switchers and or current Isolate speakers. Still unsure of the identity of Aqualithic folks, there is no reason why they still can be B2a's.

    https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/imag...02728-mmc8.mp4
    Vid source.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    not all m2 some branches of it are native to north africa

    which indeed is very good and informative study

    It is known that the geographic distribution of E-M2 in sub-Saharan Africa has been heavily influenced by the recent (< 3 kya) Bantu expansion [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17] and this is mirrored by the high frequencies of several E-M2 sub-clades among the Bantu people, in particular E-U290 and E-U174 (Additional file 1: Table S5 and Additional file 2: Figure S4). However, we found clues as to the role of the last Green Sahara considering the phylogeography of the E-M2 sub-clades in northern Africa. The coalescence age of the lineages harbouring northern and sub-Saharan chromosomes predates the onset of the arid conditions, falling between 11.03 kya (coalescence age of E-Page66) and 4.49 kya (the time estimate of the most recent clade harbouring a relevant proportion of northern African samples, i.e. E-V5280), during the last Green Sahara. After this time frame, we observed clades restricted to the north or to the south of the Sahara. In this context, although the large majority of the geographically restricted lineages come from sub-Saharan regions, we also found two northern African-specific clades, namely E-V5001 and E-V4990. E-V5001 has only been found in Egypt, is one of the sister clades within the E-M4727 multifurcation and coalesced at 3.88 kya. E-V4990 is a Moroccan clade dated to < 4.49 kya (the time estimate of the upstream node). Interestingly, it is the terminal branch of a nested topology, which divides western Africa from Morocco. We found a relevant proportion (~ 22 %) of African-American subjects belonging to the E-M2 haplogroup (Additional file 1: Table S5). These groups have been heavily influenced by the Atlantic slave trade, which took place between the XV and XIX centuries and of which the source populations were mainly sub-Saharan people. Consistent with the autosomal
    I know I'm tooting my own horn but I've always maintained that Y-DNA E-M2* is ancient among Berber/NW Africans (and in some cases Egypt as well). Damn I'm good. It also seems like Y-DNA E1a* can be explained by the Green Sahara as well.

    In fact my hypothesis of Mega Lake Chad acting as a refuge for Niger-Congo/Kordofan folks and subsequently splitting around there and migrating to West Africa at different times looks to be factual!
    Last edited by Iron Hand; 2018-02-13 at 17:31.

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    I wish we had STR's for these samples.
    Anyways:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Hand View Post
    I know I'm tooting my own horn but I've always maintained that Y-DNA E-M2* is ancient among Berber/NW Africans (and in some cases Egypt as well). Damn I'm good. It also seems like Y-DNA E1a* can be explained by the Green Sahara as well.

    In fact my hypothesis of Mega Lake Chad acting as a refuge for Niger-Congo/Kordofan folks and subsequently splitting around there and migrating to West Africa at different times looks to be factual!
    this moroocan clade of e1b1a -m2 E-V4990 open the possible that some moors were e1b1a ....
    the killer look :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    this moroocan clade of e1b1a -m2 E-V4990 open the possible that some moors were e1b1a ....
    There's no doubt about that. E-M2* has been found among Iberian men!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Hand View Post
    There's no doubt about that. E-M2* has been found among Iberian men!
    but it could have been slavery
    portugal have a long history of slave trading
    ......
    the killer look :)

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