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Thread: The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages154 days old

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    These slavery arguments seem all too convenient especially in areas and with peoples who were not known for taking people into slavery
    Paxhumana died a long time ago Anodyne, GET OVER IT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    European slaves were a fraction of the number of SSA slaves. The importing of slaves across the sahara from SSA also dates back to the time of the Phoenicians and Garamantes, long before the muslim slave trade. As far as I'm aware the trans-saharan trade was dominated by north african berbers and arabs. The Mali/Songhai empire eventually collapsed in 1591 when they were conquered by the Morrocans.
    How much profit could have been made from slavery? It could not possibly be high enough to offset the massive cost of crossing the Sahara with the 100s and 100s of millions of slaves you guys keep yapping about.

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    There is one thing about the Green Sahara that has been bugging me. Namely, that it didn't lead to a stronger sub-Saharan influence on ancient North African ancestry than seems to have been the case.

    From Ian Shaw's The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, p.. 31-2:
    The rainfall [during the Green Sahara] is a result of the northward shift of the monsoon belt; therefore human occupation in the Western Desert [of Egypt] started from the south. The settlers most likely came from the Nile Valley, an idea that is primarily based on the absence of other possibilities, but seems to be confirmed by similarities with the lithic technology of sites in the Nubian Nile Valley.
    You'd think that, since the Sahara turned green as a result of the monsoon belt moving northward, that it would lead to a vast wave of sub-Saharan migrants moving into North Africa. Furthermore, common sense would dictate that during the preceding hyper-arid periods (e.g. the LGM), there would have been more people living in sub-Sahara than any of the tiny desert refugia that would have been scattered across North Africa. Put these two presumptions together and you'd expect the sub-Saharans to swamp the whole of North Africa, absorbing the local populations the way Bantu-speaking migrants would later absorb Khoisan etc. in southern Africa.

    So why doesn't all the data show that a scenario like this is what actually happened in ancient North Africa? What would have "protected" the indigenous populations of North Africa from being absorbed by sub-Saharan waves during the Green Sahara?
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    @Truthcentric : Well, we are talking about small scattered, highly mobile, hunter-gatherer populations. They lived in the Sahara. Even when the Sahara was hospitable, life around the playas and oases would have been very precarious. Some of these populations probably did not survive the drying of the Sahara. And according to the book you quoted, those who survived in the Eastern desert migrated to the Nile Valley, such as those from Nabta Playa.

    These populations were not large enough to dominate North Africa. Anyway, what on earth was the original population of North Africa before the Green Sahara? Are we sure who they were?

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    “You'd think that, since the Sahara turned green as a result of the monsoon belt moving northward, that it would lead to a vast wave of sub-Saharan migrants moving into North Africa.”

    The sub-Saharan migrants were small groups of hunter gatherers. At the same time the Middle East experienced exponential population growth as a result of farming and these people flooded into North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasekemwy View Post
    @Truthcentric : Well, we are talking about small scattered, highly mobile, hunter-gatherer populations. They lived in the Sahara. Even when the Sahara was hospitable, life around the playas and oases would have been very precarious. Some of these populations probably did not survive the drying of the Sahara. And according to the book you quoted, those who survived in the Eastern desert migrated to the Nile Valley, such as those from Nabta Playa.

    These populations were not large enough to dominate North Africa. Anyway, what on earth was the original population of North Africa before the Green Sahara? Are we sure who they were?
    Fair enough.

    On the other hand, the Y-DNA findings in the OP gel very well with Ehret's model of Afrasan languages spreading throughout northern Africa during this time period. Of course, the proto-Afrasans most probably started out as North(east) African natives rather than migrants from sub-Sahara, but the greening of the landscape must have facilitated their spread from their Red Sea urheimat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    There is one thing about the Green Sahara that has been bugging me. Namely, that it didn't lead to a stronger sub-Saharan influence on ancient North African ancestry than seems to have been the case.

    From Ian Shaw's The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, p.. 31-2:


    You'd think that, since the Sahara turned green as a result of the monsoon belt moving northward, that it would lead to a vast wave of sub-Saharan migrants moving into North Africa. Furthermore, common sense would dictate that during the preceding hyper-arid periods (e.g. the LGM), there would have been more people living in sub-Sahara than any of the tiny desert refugia that would have been scattered across North Africa. Put these two presumptions together and you'd expect the sub-Saharans to swamp the whole of North Africa, absorbing the local populations the way Bantu-speaking migrants would later absorb Khoisan etc. in southern Africa.

    So why doesn't all the data show that a scenario like this is what actually happened in ancient North Africa? What would have "protected" the indigenous populations of North Africa from being absorbed by sub-Saharan waves during the Green Sahara?
    Actually, it did have a strong influence on North African populations. This is why Nilo-Saharan populations (and some Chadic speakers who are biologically substantially Nilo-Saharan), are now found as far north and west as they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Actually, it did have a strong influence on North African populations. This is why Nilo-Saharan populations (and some Chadic speakers who are biologically substantially Nilo-Saharan), are now found as far north and west as they are.
    Sure, but I was referring to populations even further north, like the ancient Egypto-Nubians. But then, I think @Kasekemwy 's answer to my question was satisfactory.
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