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Thread: The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages5 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    but it could have been slavery
    portugal have a long history of slave trading
    ......
    As do your ancestors. Your M34 lineage "could have been slavery".

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    but it could have been slavery
    portugal have a long history of slave trading
    ......
    Some of it could be but most of it is from the Berbers. Slave men were very much restricted sexually. Also not many slaves went to the Iberian peninsula. There's a reason it was called the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.
    Last edited by Iron Hand; 2018-02-13 at 19:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    As do your ancestors. Your M34 lineage "could have been slavery".
    unlikely giving that his ancestor e-z830 was in 8000-9000 bc in the levant {before any j1 step any foot there
    in same time as chaddar man in terms of period}
    most chance it originitaed in south levant or north egypt by back migration ....
    the ethiopian e-m34 could be jews who belong to the tribe of levi or yemenites who cross red sea .....
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I wish we had STR's for these samples.
    Anyways:

    Buh Bu Bu aDNA. Where's the aDNA? aDNA solves everything about anthropology ever!? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    unlikely giving that his ancestor e-z830 was in 8000-9000 bc in the levant {before any j1 step any foot there
    in same time as chaddar man in terms of period}
    most chance it originitaed in south levant or north egypt by back migration ....
    the ethiopian e-m34 could be jews who belong to the tribe of levi or yemenites who cross red sea .....
    It "could have been"...that's all yall talk about in the old testament is Slavery. But what is the point of bringing up Slavery when North Africans are shown to have plenty of North African specific M2 lineages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I wish we had STR's for these samples.
    Anyways:

    By the rate things are going, there might not be any geese remaining by the year 2020.

    regarding the asymetrical distribution between sex chromosome lineages, the reasoning behind suggesting the maternal influences are a result of he slave trade might just be adhesion to the status quo and nothing more..
    These data suggest that the presence in north- ern Africa of sub-Saharan patrilineages was not due to recent contacts but probably occurred in more ancient times, possibly during the Green Sahara period consider- ing the coalescence ages of the clades. Our findings seem to be at odds with genome-wide studies [42, 43, 59, 60] reporting a recent relevant sub-Saharan genetic component in modern northern African populations, mainly attributed to the Arab slave trade....
    You never want to be too much at odds with your peers y'know. Though the wording in the abstract could have been better, as we know that the history behind "SSA" lineages in NA are complex. Some undoubtedly are there because of the Slave trade, but the same can be said for European lineages in NA. Why they oversimplify African demographic history with slavery is beyond me.

    Without Sudanese populations it's hard to say for sure and without a doubt where the exact origin of EM2 is. But it might be central Saharan, nonetheless now knowing and seeing how young and downstream Bantu lineages are puts the whole clade in perspective. I'd like to clarify if the Nilosahan/NK relationship is determined by movement from Sudan or if the Sudanese are a terminal and ancestral populations were located more west ward in areas like chad (or even southern Libya ). On the other hand A-M13 being reportedly so young in these populations is probably a hint at actual Migrations from Sudan, as I'm sure if Sudanese people were included the age estimates would have increased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    It "could have been"...that's all yall talk about in the old testament is Slavery. But what is the point of bringing up Slavery when North Africans are shown to have plenty of North African specific M2 lineages.
    because the one found in iberia in this study is not the specific moroocan clade just m2* thats why
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    because the one found in iberia in this study is not the specific moroocan clade just m2* thats why
    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    It "could have been"...that's all yall talk about in the old testament is Slavery. But what is the point of bringing up Slavery when North Africans are shown to have plenty of North African specific M2 lineages.
    see, It's that status quo phenomenon... Its not like only u174 was fount in Iberia.. fucking M2* with almost noise level frequency in SSA or even Afram. These things are hardwired into their brains lmao... Like where all that creative energy, and deductive reasoning go all of a sudden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    By the rate things are going, there might not be any geese remaining by the year 2020.

    regarding the asymetrical distribution between sex chromosome lineages, the reasoning behind suggesting the maternal influences are a result of he slave trade might just be adhesion to the status quo and nothing more..

    These data suggest that the presence in north- ern Africa of sub-Saharan patrilineages was not due to recent contacts but probably occurred in more ancient times, possibly during the Green Sahara period consider- ing the coalescence ages of the clades. Our findings seem to be at odds with genome-wide studies [42, 43, 59, 60] reporting a recent relevant sub-Saharan genetic component in modern northern African populations, mainly attributed to the Arab slave trade....
    You never want to be too much at odds with your peers y'know. Though the wording in the abstract could have been better, as we know that the history behind "SSA" lineages in NA are complex. Some undoubtedly are there because of the Slave trade, but the same can be said for European lineages in NA. Why they oversimplify African demographic history with slavery is beyond me.
    Unfortunately many scientists (including geneticists) have a poor understanding of history. Many people seem to think that 'MENA' (the proper term IMO) slave trade was about SSA slave men having their balls cut off and the women being concubines. They don't seem to realise that a lot of the Mt-DNA L clades found among Berber/NW African and Egyptian women are specific and ancient. That the 'MENA' slave trade involved lots of Euros and South Asians. That while they were both connected, there was a difference between the Trans-Saharan slave trade and the 'Arab' Indian Ocean slave trade. The fact many SSA peoples that were involved in the Indian Ocean trade weren't all slaves - many were mercs and traders. That even though SSA slave men had the balls cut off in the Arab peninsular, the ones that weren't slaves settled down and passed on their genes and Y-DNA (E-M2*, E-U174, E1b1a8a, E2b* A-M13 and B2a* have been found among Gulf Arab and Iranian men.)

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    Without Sudanese populations it's hard to say for sure and without a doubt where the exact origin of EM2 is. But it might be central Saharan, nonetheless now knowing and seeing how young and downstream Bantu lineages are puts the whole clade in perspective. I'd like to clarify if the Nilosahan/NK relationship is determined by movement from Sudan or if the Sudanese are a terminal and ancestral populations were located more west ward in areas like chad (or even southern Libya ). On the other hand A-M13 being reportedly so young in these populations is probably a hint at actual Migrations from Sudan, as I'm sure if Sudanese people were included the age estimates would have increased.
    Y-DNA E-M2* is most likely Chadian in origin. I wish the scientists used Sudanese peoples in their paper as well. Something tells me that if they did, the conclusions would be quite different. Especially when it comes to Y-DNA B2a*.
    Last edited by Iron Hand; 2018-02-13 at 19:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Hand View Post
    Unfortunately many scientists (including geneticists) have a poor understanding of history. Many people seem to think that 'MENA' (the proper term IMO) slave trade was about SSA slave men having their balls cut off and the women being concubines. They don't seem to realise that a lot of the Mt-DNA L clades found among Berber/NW African and Egyptian women are specific and ancient. That the 'MENA' slave trade involved lots of Euros and South Asians. That while they were both connected, there was a difference between the Trans-Saharan slave trade and the 'Arab' Indian Ocean slave trade. The fact many SSA peoples that were involved in the Indian Ocean trade weren't all slaves - many were mercs and traders. That even though SSA slave men had the balls cut off in the Arab peninsular, the ones that weren't slaves settled down and passed on their genes and Y-DNA (E-M2*, E-U174, E1b1a8a, E2b* A-M13 and B2a* have been found among Gulf Arab and Iranian men.)
    I always believed the traditional "slave trade" explanation had a racist undertone to it. The motivation seems to be the dismissal of any non-Eurasian ancestry in North Africans as not only foreign, but limited to the most marginalized segments of the population. They're basically saying, "Sure, there's ancestry in North Africa that's not Eurasian, but the contributors were little more than lowly slaves."

    Not to mention, most artistic portrayals of the slaves being traded in haven't imbued their subjects with a lot of dignity. They seem to be always represented as benighted, half-naked tribal savages, most especially in older illustrations.

    Speaking of slave trades, while slavery might not have been that important to the ancient Egyptian economy, we know they still took in war captives as slaves. And during the New Kingdom period, we know a large number of those captives would have come from Egyptian campaigns in the Middle East. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Eurasian mtDNA in the late dynastic Abusir el-Meleq mummies had something to do with the female slaves being taken in.
    Knowledge is consciousness of reality. Reality is the sum of the laws that govern nature and of the causes from which they flow.
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