User Tag List

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 21 to 26 of 26

Thread: Poland in 1st-2nd c. AD (Przeworsk culture & the Lugian Federation)131 days old

  1. #21
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 18:46
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    6,429
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvin View Post
    I made the following map showing Poland in 1st-2nd c. AD with its tribes:

    I have another question: why do you use anachronistic term "Goths" instead of "Gythones" - the term used by Ptolemy - while at the same time you write "Boulanes" instead of "Poles"? And why Boulanes and not Soulanes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptolemy
    Lesser races inhabit Sarmatia near the Vistula river. Below the Venedae are the Gythones, then the Finni, then the Soulanes/Boulanes; below whom are the Phrungundiones; then the Avarini near the source of the Vistula river; below these are the Ombrones, then the Anartophracti, then the Burgiones, then the Arsietae, then the Saboci, then the Piengitae and the Biessi near the Carpathian mountains. Among those we have named to the east: below the Venedae are the Galindae, the Sudini, and the Stavani, extending as far as the Alauni; below these are the Igylliones, then the Coestoboci and the Transmontani extending as far as the Peuca mountains. Back from the Ocean, near the Venedicus bay, the Veltae dwell, above whom are the Ossi; then more toward the north the Carbones and toward the east are the Careotae and the Sali; below whom are the Gelones, the Hippopodes and the Melanchlaeni; below these are the Agathyrsi; then the Aorsi and the Pagyritae; then the Savari and the Borusci to the Ripaeos mountains; then the Acibi and the Nasci; below whom are the Vibiones and the Idrae; and below the Vibiones bordering on the Alauni are the Sturni, and between the Alauni and the Amaxobii are the Cariones and the Sargati; near the bend of the Tanis river are the Ophlones and then the Tanaitae; below whom are the Osili extending as far as Rhoxolanis; between the Amaxobii and the Rhoxolani are the Rheucanali and the Exobygitae; and between the Peucini and the Basternae are the Carpiani, above whom are the Gevini, then the Bodini; between the Basternae and the Rhoxolani are the Chuni, and below the mountains named from these are the Amadoci and the Navarri.
    About Soulanes/Boulanes controversy.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2018-03-13 at 10:16.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Wojewoda For This Useful Post:

    Litvin (2018-03-16)

  3. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Location
    ForumBiodiversity.com
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  4. #22
    QBS Banned
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2018-04-13 @ 11:01
    Join Date
    2016-12-19
    Posts
    1,280
    Gender
    European Union

    Default

    Gepid genome from Serbia appears to be only around 1/4 Germanic:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...on-period.html

    Serbia_Gepid_ACD:VIM_2

    Balkans_IA,35.2%
    Nordic_IA,28.6%
    Scythian_ZevakinoChilikta,26.4%
    Han,6%
    Nganassan,3.8%

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Litvin For This Useful Post:

    Semitic Duwa (2018-03-13)

  6. #23
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 18:46
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    6,429
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvin View Post
    I made the following map showing Poland in 1st-2nd c. AD with its tribes:

    Don't you think that you have Lugi Diduni in the wrong place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptolemy
    (...) Rursus infra Semnones sedes habent Silingae, et infra Burguntas Lugi Omani, infra quos Lugi Diduni usque ad Asciburgium montem (...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptolemy
    Back below the Semnones the Silingae have their seat, and below the Burguntae the Lugi Omani, below whom the Lugi Diduni up to Mt. Asciburgius
    Aren't the "Asciburgium montem" Ore Mountains/Rudawy:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Ore Mountains or Ore Mountain Range[1] ( /ɔːr/) (German: Erzgebirge [ˈeːɐ̯tsɡəbɪɐ̯ɡə]; Czech: Krušné hory; both literally "ore mountains"[2]) in Central Europe have formed a natural border between Saxony and Bohemia for around 800 years, from the 12th to the 20th centuries.




    ?

    And about Mugilones:

    The ethnic name Mugilones was transmitted by an eminent Greek scholar Strabo in his work entitled 'Geographica', written before 29 A.C.
    (...)
    As a result of the conducted geographical and historical study, the author arrives at the conclusion that (...) Mogilans in the times of Christ can be located only north of Bohemia (today Czech Republic), i.e., in Rudavy, west of the Elbe, most probably around the modern town of Mügeln northwest of Meissen.
    Source






    And what about this quote about Silingae:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Silingi are first mentioned by Claudius Ptolemaeus in the 2nd century, who wrote that they had lived south of the Suevic Semnone tribe and north of the Carpathian Mountains, around what now is Silesia:

    Back below the Semnones the Silingae have their seat, [...]; and below the Silingae the Calucones and the Camavi up to Mt. Melibocus, from whom to the east near the Albis river and above them, below Mt. Asciburgius, the Corconti and the Lugi Buri up to the head of the Vistula river.
    Let's see where Melibucus is located:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Melibokus (also Melibocus, Malchen or Malschen) is at 517 metres (1696 feet), the highest hill in the Bergstraße region of southern Hesse, central Germany.
    Ups!

    But they continue:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Despite the modern use of the classical name, the mountain mentioned in classical sources was probably either the Harz mountains, or Thuringian Forest or both.[1][2] Ptolemy's Geography (Book 2, Chapter 10) mentions the Melobokon oros, as being just to the south of the Cherusci, corresponding to the mountainous "Silva Bacenis" which Julius Caesar mentioned as separating the Cherusci and the Chatti in Hesse.


    Calucones were in Rhetia:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Calucones were a Rhaetian tribe mentioned by a few of the classical sources, but not all. Pliny the Elder (Book 3 Chapter 24 of Naturalis Historia, published in 77 CE) quotes a monument to the reign of Augustus, the tropeaum Alpium, located in the Rhaetia of his day, stating that Augustus subdued the Alpine peoples from the upper sea to the lower sea, including the Calucones.
    ... and Chamavii were in Netherlands:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Chamavi were a Germanic tribe of Roman imperial times whose name survived into the Early Middle Ages. They first appear under that name in the 1st century AD Germania of Tacitus as a Germanic tribe that lived to the north of the Lower Rhine. Their name probably survives in the region today called Hamaland, which is in the Gelderland province of the Netherlands, between the IJssel and Ems rivers.
    (...)
    On the other hand, coming from the direction of the Elbe, and now south of the Suebian band of peoples, the Kamauoi (Latinized to Camavi) are mentioned together with the Cherusci at "Mount Melibocus", which is thought to be the Harz mountains. Both are said to be "under", meaning south of, the Calucones, who lived on both side of the Elbe. Matching the Harz, the Elbe is also to the west, where the "Bainochaimai" live. Although these Cherusci are close to where other texts report them, this is quite far to the east of Hamaland, and also somewhat to the east of the land of the Bructeri. So this is an unusual placement to be reported for the Chamavi.


    In other words maybe you should consider moving/streaching Lugi Omani, Silignians and Mugilones to the west towards Ore Mountains, Harz mountains and Thuringian Forest.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2018-03-13 at 16:45.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Wojewoda For This Useful Post:

    Litvin (2018-03-16)

  8. #24
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 18:46
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    6,429
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    If think you might have Farodini also in the wrong place:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptolomy
    the Bructeri up to the Amisia river … to the north the Cimbri; after the Saxons from the Chalusus river to the Suevian river the Farodini, then the Sidini up to the Viadua river, and after these the Rugiclei up to the Vistula river….
    "Viadua river" is Odra:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Oder is known by several names in different languages, but the modern ones are very similar: English and German: Oder; Czech, Polish, and Lower Sorbian: Odra, Upper Sorbian: Wódra; Kashubian: Òdra (pronounced [ˈwɛdra]); Medieval Latin: Od(d)era; Renaissance Latin: Viadrus (invented in 1534).
    "Chalusus river" takes its name from Chali:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Chali, a Latinized form of the Khaloi or Chaloi of Ptolemy's Greek, were a Germanic tribe residing in Jutland. We hear no more about the Chali as such in history, but their name can probably be connected with the Chalusus river (ibid.), tentatively identified as the Trave. The modern name comes from the Slavs at the mouth of the river (mediaeval Trabena), as Charlemagne for a time encouraged them to settle in the region. The upper river must have remained in the lands of the Chali.

    Speculating further, one might connect the name with Halland in Sweden (as well as the Hilleviones), which was originally Danish. From a political point of view, Scandinavia became defined by its resistance to the Slavic policies of Charlemagne, who was inviting Slavs to populate lands in Schleswig-Holstein left vacant by the migrations to Britain. A southern border was set by treaty in the early 9th century; presumably, the Chali were north of it.

    Halland remained unquestionably Danish until the 11th century. By then there were language differences between the Danes and Swedes. Halland spoke Danish, but it became an object of contention. Many long years later the northern border of Denmark was finally established by treaty in 1645. Halland was to be Swedish; however, it speaks its own dialect, based on its ancient Danish background.

    One might conclude therefore to a possible core Danish population titled *Hal- or *Hil-, located in Jutland, the islands, and southern Sweden. If that is true, then the name has a somewhat amorphous referent, meaning some or all of a population also possessing other names and not necessarily politically or ethnically united, except when the region became early Denmark.

    Due to the machinations of Otto von Bismarck, "the iron chancellor", during Germany's late 19th century imperial period, Schleswig-Holstein and the entire Trave drainage system are currently part of Germany.




    So we only have to locate Suevian river between Trave and Odra, which may be - considering where Suevi lived - either Warnow or Recknitz.




    But wouldn't make sense that "Suevian river" was simply Elbe?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2018-03-13 at 17:17.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Wojewoda For This Useful Post:

    Litvin (2018-03-16)

  10. #25
    QBS Banned
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2018-04-13 @ 11:01
    Join Date
    2016-12-19
    Posts
    1,280
    Gender
    European Union

    Default

    Jerzy Kolendo argued that Odra was Svebos, not Viaduas. He wrote that Svebos is the only of those 3 rivers which is also mentioned by Ptolemy when he describes tribes living far away from the sea - Semnones and Burgundians. So Svebos was a very long river, which is consistent with its identification as Odra. On the other hand, Chalusos and Viaduas are only mentioned when describing coastal areas. According to Kolendo, Chalusos was probably Warnow (the largest river of Mecklenburg) or maybe Trave or Recknitz. Viaduas was one of rivers in Polish Pomerania (either Rega, Parsęta, Wieprza, Słupia or Łeba).

    ==========================

    Wojewoda, do you have Kolendo's book? "Vistula amne discreta", 2015. I recommend it.

    But I don't agree with everything Kolendo wrote. For example I disagree with his idea that Leukaristos had to be Trencin just because the inscription was found there. Leukaristos was likely somewhere in Poland (it could be a military camp of 100 Roman cavalry sent by Domitian to help the Lugians).

    Kolendo's idea that Leukaristos was Trencin in Slovakia is debunked here:

    http://aldrajch.blogspot.com/2016/09...cie-obozu.html

    http://www.poselska.nazwa.pl/wieczor...to-kolo-leszna

    ==========================

    BTW, if you like conspiracy theories, here is one according to which Vistulas = Odra:

    http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=138188

    According to his idea, Vistulas was ancient Oder, and Chronos was ancient Vistula!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    (...)
    I used Goths because they are mentioned by several sources under several names, like Gythones, Gutones, Gotones, etc. So I used the English name. On the other hand Boulanes/Soulanes are mentioned only by Ptolemy. I'm not sure if they were Poles, so I just left this open to interpretation. Anyone who decides to google "Boulanes" will find that article about possible links between them and Poles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    But wouldn't make sense that "Suevian river" was simply Elbe?
    So another name for Albis?

    But if Suevian tribes lived between the Elbe and Oder, then it could be Oder too.
    Last edited by Litvin; 2018-03-16 at 14:34.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Litvin For This Useful Post:

    Wojewoda (2018-03-16)

  12. #26
    QBS Banned
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2018-04-13 @ 11:01
    Join Date
    2016-12-19
    Posts
    1,280
    Gender
    European Union

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Don't you think that you have Lugi Diduni in the wrong place?
    I think it was argued on historycy.org that Asciburgium was something in Poland, probably Mt. Ślęża:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Al%C4%99%C5%BCa

    Maybe it was actually not a single mount and not mountains either, but a forest such as for example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Przesieka

    Remember that Ptolemy mentions also "the Sudeta mountains" to the southwest of Asciburgium:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetes
    Last edited by Litvin; 2018-03-16 at 14:48.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Litvin For This Useful Post:

    Wojewoda (2018-03-16)

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3

Similar Threads

  1. Nordic culture = rape culture
    By Litvin in forum Race & Ethnicity in Society
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 2017-12-15, 16:49
  2. Is American Culture just Black culture?
    By Sanjub_Saraswati in forum Arts & Culture
    Replies: 99
    Last Post: 2017-05-06, 07:21
  3. Poland
    By Litvin in forum Asia & Oceania
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 2017-04-10, 22:11
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2014-12-04, 12:53
  5. The Future Possibility of A Chinese Federation with Hong Kong and Taiwan
    By dsong2006 in forum Current Affairs & Politics
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 2010-09-27, 22:05

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<