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Thread: Ancient Fennoscandian genomes reveal origin and spread of Siberian ancestry in Europe (Lamnidis et al. 2018)550 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    I think the Indo-Uralic hypothesis makes sense given the ANE ancestry in Yamnaya.
    Yamnayans were more CHG than ANE. Also, the Uralic “link” can be easily explained by word borrowing (after all, Proto-Indo-European is said to have Kartvelian and Semitic “connections” as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    PIE=R1a.
    Such a claim made sense before ancient DNA. I mean, R1a hasn’t even been found in Yamnaya for crying out loud!
    Last edited by Power77; 2018-03-23 at 18:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    How common is N1c (or other N clades) among non-Finnish Uralic speakers? Especially those found in Russia. Also, does it correlate with the Siberian component, and do they carry a lot of the Siberian component?
    N1c (M2126 in particular) is widespread among Uralic-speaking groups, it is ubiquitous in the same way R1 lineages are among IE-speaking groups. You can expect a fair degree of correlation between this lineage and the Siberian component, especially if we take the latter's relatively recent (from the standpoint of European prehistory) introduction into account.

    I think the Indo-Uralic hypothesis makes sense, given the ANE derived ancestry in Yamnaya, and the few but important cognates (non-Indo-Iranian if I remember correctly) that Finnish and other Uralic languages share with IE (specifically the words water and name). As you know, I've also long been a proponent of PIE=R1a, but could you elaborate why you think R1a-M459 developed PIE?
    It makes sense both from a linguistic vantage point (primarily because of shared morphology) and a genomic one. The qpAdm models need to be taken with a grain of salt however. If we are to identify potential candidates for the Indo-Uralic speech community, I very much doubt there's a better contender than the EHGs, now we know that both R1a and R1b were found among the EHGs, however R1a does seem to be a somewhat more prominent marker at this stage, if this trend is confirmed then it could mean that the break up of Pre-PIE from Indo-Uralic is tied to an R1a-rich group (in turn, this would mean that the R1b communities [in Mesolithic-Neolithic Ukraine] would've spoken something akin to Indo-Uralic, close enough to absorb Pre-PIE speech with relative ease). This admittedly is a wobbly model, and should be treated as a mere possibility, we shouldn't read too much in the Y-DNA makeup of these hunter-gatherers as long as the sample count remains low (like I said, we already have two Karelian HGs who were J1 and I very much doubt this had anything to do with Indo-Uralic or Pre-PIE).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Yamnayans were more CHG than ANE.
    Not really, besides CHG is also largely made up of BE, UHG and ANE.

    Also, the Uralic “link” can be easily explained by word borrowing (after all, Proto-Indo-European is said to have Kartvelian and Semitic “connections” as well).
    Not at all, the word-borrowing is relatively late (most of the loans being Proto-Indo-Iranian, some are older and genuinely PIE though). Borrowing does not provide a good explanation for the shared morphology, especially when we're dealing with pronominal and verbal morphology (exactly the kind of stuff that isn't usually borrowed in a language).

    The Kartvelian and Semitic links are, generally, less prominent and in some cases (especially Semitic) incorrect.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2018-03-23 at 18:51.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    @Semitic Duwa , R1 lineages aren’t “widespread” among all IE-speaking groups (both ancient and modern). For instance, some of them lack these lineages (i.e., Ossetians, Myceneans) while others have rather low frequencies (i.e., Italians, Iranians, Greeks, Cypriots, Armenians and Albanians). What’s interesting to me is the fact that R1 tends to be relatively infrequent among ethnicities that speak the most conservative IE languages (i.e., Italic, Greek, Albanian and Armenian), while it is seemingly frequent among groups that speak the less conservative ones (i.e., Celtic, Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Indo-Iranian). We definitely need ancient DNA from Anatolian speakers (i.e., Hittites, Luwians et al.) to settle the whole IE question IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    @Semitic Duwa , R1 lineages aren’t “widespread” among all IE-speaking groups (both ancient and modern). For instance, some of them lack these lineages (i.e., Ossetians, Myceneans) while others have rather low frequencies (i.e., Italians, Iranians, Greeks, Cypriots, Armenians and Albanians). What’s interesting to me is the fact that R1 tends to be relatively infrequent among ethnicities that speak the most conservative IE languages (i.e., Italic, Greek, Albanian and Armenian), while it is seemingly frequent among groups that speak the less conservative ones (i.e., Celtic, Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Indo-Iranian). We definitely need ancient DNA from Anatolian speakers (i.e., Hittites, Luwians et al.) to settle the whole IE question IMHO.
    There isn't a single branch of the (nuclear) IE family where an abundance of R1 lineages fails to show up so far:

    • R1b-P312 and its branches are widespread among Italo-Celtic speakers.
    • R1b-U106, R1a-Z284 and R1a-L664 are widespread among Germanic speakers.
    • R1a-Z282 and its branches prevail throughout the Balto-Slavic-speaking world.
    • R1a-Z93 is omnipresent throughout the Indo-Iranian-speaking world.
    • R1b-Z2103 is a very pervasive marker in Albania, Greece and even reaches relatively high frequencies in Armenia (and even among their Assyrian neighbours for that matter).


    And I'm not even talking about the smaller branches (DF99, L238, etc). If we look at the ancient genomic record, we find R1b-M269 in Yamnaya and Afanasevo (the latter is largely understood as the cultural correlate for the ancestors of the Tocharians), R1a in Sredny Stog (the cultural correlate for Archaic PIE), CW and its many derivatives (such as Sintashta). The Bell Beakers are responsible for the dissemination of R1b-P312 in Western Europe which came with the introduction of steppe ancestry. All of this fits perfectly with the phylogeny and TMRCA estimates of these different lineages, all of which tend to follow early IE dispersals. You mention the Anatolian speakers, IMO they will probably carry decent amounts of R1b-PF7562, I'd be very surprised if this weren't the case, but even if I'm wrong on this it isn't exactly important at this stage. My statement by and large remains true.

    Also, Italic (unless we're talking about Latin), Albanian and Armenian are incomparably less conservative than Balto-Slavic languages (minus Bulgarian & Macedonian).
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2018-03-23 at 20:48.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    There isn't a single branch of the (nuclear) IE family where an abundance of R1 lineages fails to show up so far:

    • R1b-P312 and its branches are widespread among Italo-Celtic speakers.
    • R1b-U106, R1a-Z284 and R1a-L664 are widespread among Germanic speakers.
    • R1a-Z282 and its branches prevail throughout the Balto-Slavic-speaking world.
    • R1a-Z93 is omnipresent throughout the Indo-Iranian-speaking world.
    • R1b-Z2103 is a very pervasive marker in Albania, Greece and even reaches relatively high frequencies in Armenia (and even among their Assyrian neighbours for that matter).


    And I'm not even talking about the smaller branches (DF99, L238, etc). If we look at the ancient genomic record, we find R1b-M269 in Yamnaya and Afanasevo (the latter is largely understood as the cultural correlate for the ancestors of the Tocharians), R1a in Sredny Stog (the cultural correlate for Archaic PIE), CW and its many derivatives (such as Sintashta). The Bell Beakers are responsible for the dissemination of R1b-P312 in Western Europe which came with the introduction of steppe ancestry. All of this fits perfectly with the phylogeny and TMRCA estimates of these different lineages, all of which tend to follow early IE dispersals. You mention the Anatolian speakers, IMO they will probably carry decent amounts of R1b-PF7562, I'd be very surprised if this weren't the case, but even if I'm wrong on this it isn't exactly important at this stage. My statement by and large remains true.

    Also, Italic (unless we're talking about Latin), Albanian and Armenian are incomparably less conservative than Balto-Slavic languages (minus Bulgarian & Macedonian).
    1/ How do we know that all of these ancient R1-rich cultures were IE-speaking?
    2/ What if the Anatolian speakers turn out to be 100% J1 and/or J2 (with little to no autosomal links to the Steppes and/or the Huytte world)?
    3/ Don’t you find it kind of odd that the oldest confirmed IE speakers turned out to be J2a carriers with little to no “Steppic” ancestry (especially given the fact that many people expected them to be “Slavic-like” or something).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    1/ How do we know that all of these ancient R1-rich cultures were IE-speaking?
    We know because they are the cultural correlates of the different IE dispersals in the framework of the Pontic-Caspian steppe homeland.

    2/ What if the Anatolian speakers turn out to be 100% J1 and/or J2 (with little to no autosomal links to the Steppes and/or the Huytte world)?
    That's extremely unlikely to be the case, with decent sampling (let's say at least a dozen individuals) we will clearly see substantial steppe ancestry.

    3/ Don’t you find it kind of odd that the oldest confirmed IE speakers turned out to be J2a carriers with little to no “Steppic” ancestry (especially given the fact that many people expected them to be “Slavic-like” or something).
    First off, the Mycenaeans are not the oldest confirmed IE speakers, that would be Yamnaya. Furthermore, we only have 4 samples so far, only one of which was a male. A single male sample does not enable us to conclusively outline the Y-DNA makeup of the Bronze Age Greeks (an upcoming study will probably solve this issue). Finally, these Mycenaean samples have a substantial amount of recent steppe ancestry (resembling Steppe_LMBA):

    [1] "distance%=2.5293"

    Mycenaean

    Minoan_Lasithi,82.6
    Balkans_BA:I2163,17.4


    I2163 here is a BA sample from Bulgaria (I2163) that carried Y-DNA haplogroup R1a-Z93 and was dated circa 1750-1625 calBCE, it looks as if he arrived straight from Eastern Europe. More importantly, the presence of steppe admixture is virtually the only major difference between the IE Mycenaeans and the non-IE Minoans.

    BTW I was expecting the Mycenaeans to resemble Anatolia_Chl, so I wasn't too far off.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Thanks again for your input @Semitic Duwa ! One last question tough (as it is going a bit off-topic): do you think that most of the R1b-U152 in Italy as well as most of the R1a-Z93 in Iran and South-Central Asia could be from relatively recent historical incursions in those said areas (i.e., Celts and Gauls for R1b-U152 in Italy; Turks and Mongols for R1a-Z93 in the Indo-Iranian-speaking world) rather than from Proto-Italics and/or Proto-Indo-Iranians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Thanks again for your input @Semitic Duwa ! One last question tough (as it is going a bit off-topic): do you think that most of the R1b-U152 in Italy as well as most of the R1a-Z93 in Iran and South-Central Asia could be from relatively recent historical incursions in those said areas (i.e., Celts and Gauls for R1b-U152 in Italy; Turks and Mongols for R1a-Z93 in the Indo-Iranian-speaking world) rather than from Proto-Italics and/or Proto-Indo-Iranians?
    No, I don't think so.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Anyway, to get back to the topic (this thread isn't about IE in general).

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    N1c (M2126 in particular) is widespread among Uralic-speaking groups, it is ubiquitous in the same way R1 lineages are among IE-speaking groups. You can expect a fair degree of correlation between this lineage and the Siberian component, especially if we take the latter's relatively recent (from the standpoint of European prehistory) introduction into account.
    Is N1c found in non-Uralic speaking Siberian populations, like Yakut and such?

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    It makes sense both from a linguistic vantage point (primarily because of shared morphology) and a genomic one. The qpAdm models need to be taken with a grain of salt however. If we are to identify potential candidates for the Indo-Uralic speech community, I very much doubt there's a better contender than the EHGs, now we know that both R1a and R1b were found among the EHGs, however R1a does seem to be a somewhat more prominent marker at this stage, if this trend is confirmed then it could mean that the break up of Pre-PIE from Indo-Uralic is tied to an R1a-rich group (in turn, this would mean that the R1b communities [in Mesolithic-Neolithic Ukraine] would've spoken something akin to Indo-Uralic, close enough to absorb Pre-PIE speech with relative ease). This admittedly is a wobbly model, and should be treated as a mere possibility, we shouldn't read too much in the Y-DNA makeup of these hunter-gatherers as long as the sample count remains low (like I said, we already have two Karelian HGs who were J1 and I very much doubt this had anything to do with Indo-Uralic or Pre-PIE).
    But EHG is a much younger component than ANE. Proto-Indo-Uralic is very ancient stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Not at all, the word-borrowing is relatively late (most of the loans being Proto-Indo-Iranian, some are older and genuinely PIE though). Borrowing does not provide a good explanation for the shared morphology, especially when we're dealing with pronominal and verbal morphology (exactly the kind of stuff that isn't usually borrowed in a language).

    The Kartvelian and Semitic links are, generally, less prominent and in some cases (especially Semitic) incorrect.
    Yeah, and that's also why, along with ANE's obvious Siberian origin, Indo-Uralic makes sense. That, and the fact that many linguists classify PIE closer to Uralic, Turkic and so on, than to Semitic/Afro-Asiatic and Kartvelian.

    Now the original Indo-Uralic community obviously weren't Siberian Mongoloids, but in that region an ANE or ANE-related population migrated west, and then later on, proto-Uralic to a lesser extent, also migrated west (very likely after receiving additional gene flow from some proto-Mongoloid tribe, which also may have altered the original linguistic community of the pre-proto-Uralics, somewhat at least, in much the same way the original ANE-rich pre-PIE language was modified with linguistic influences by the local Caucasus languages). The original proto-Indo-Uralic tribe was very likely much different genetically, than its modern speakers. They probably predate the ANE-Siberian genetic split, or maybe they were completely ANE, and Siberian-Mongoloid admixture is a later phenomenon in the region (expansion of Chinese-related tribes north, who language shifted to the local tribes' ANE languages).

    It's difficult to say exactly what went down in Siberia, it's all shrouded in mystery, and we'll probably never go beyond speculation on this topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    How common is N1c (or other N clades) among non-Finnish Uralic speakers? Especially those found in Russia. Also, does it correlate with the Siberian component, and do they carry a lot of the Siberian component?
    See here.

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