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Thread: Genetic differences within Ireland and data from 2 studies.574 days old

  1. #11
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    "The Ulster cluster itself shows the greatest genetic distance from Britain, in both our PCA and Fst analysis, despite its geographic proximity to Britain. Given that we have identified groups within the north of Ireland that do have genetic links to Britain, i.e. the N Ireland clusters, Ulster most likely represents individuals of ‘Gaelic’ ancestry that have remained genetically isolated from Britain – which reflects the demographic and political history of the region."
    Personally, after thorough familial/regional research, am not surprised Ulster & Munster are different. You can get some not-so-British looking Irish from these regions; including a relative but DNA/relatives doesn't support a npe for the nearly East Central European look.

    "South Munster (SMN) and Cork (CRK) clusters branch off first in the fineSTRUCTURE tree and show distinct separation from their neighbouring north Munster clusters (NMN), indicating that south Munster’s haplotypic makeup is more distinct from its neighbouring regions and the remaining regions than any other cluster. TVD analysis supports this observation (S1 Table and S3 Table), with the Cork cluster in particular showing strong differentiation from other clusters. This may reflect the persistent isolating effects of the mountain ranges surrounding the south Munster counties of Cork and Kerry, restricting gene flow with the rest of Ireland and preserving older structure."
    This could be everything from the Pale, to Cormwell, to the Desmond settlers/Undertakers; none of which the article mentions. But I know an English family who settled around Tipperary back 1600s & their manor house still happens to stand today. Btw, the Cork/Kerry section could also be due to the fact during the above mentioned eras Irish were displaced to make room for English landowners & English to work the land - the Irish were threatened with death if they didn't play nice & make way.

    The study also found that in Ireland, there has been little migration across the border of Leinster and Munster, and very little migration to the extreme west coast of Connacht, as well as a genetic barrier between Gaelic Ulster and the descendants of Scottish and English planters (Protestant Northern Irish).
    For the reasons mentioned above this is why having foreigners with little knowledge of a country's finer details, and likely the references weren't that knowledgable either, is a problem. They make it sound as if this is surprising. The divide is likely due to the Pale and to Cromwell's era. English settled in Wexford, Wicklow, & Waterford and expanded outwards (such as to Kilkenny).

    Of the Irish clusters, Munster in far southern Ireland and the Gaelic Ulster cluster seem most divergent from the rest of the island, possibly reflecting greater isolation from Britain. Contrary to expectations of many, Connacht in far western Ireland is most similar to Leinster and to the Dublin cluster. Ireland's clusters appear to fall neatly within the provincial boundaries, because Irish provinces' borders were formed based on clans and tribes.
    As said the problem of ill prepared research and poor references. Not surprising actually. The English weren't just poor as dirt peasants displaced into Ireland. Some, particularly of the soldier or merchant class, happened to have reached areas such as Galway. On the reverse Irish who were seeking jobs during the Industrial Revolution would have moved towards England (shipping, weaving, clothes, etc.) and that would have included passing through Leinster and ending up in Dublin as they couldn't have very well flown across the channel & Dublin was/is a major shipping city.


    No one in Ireland is close to Basques or Spaniards. People often say that western Ireland is a hotbed of Basque-like individuals, but this is not true. All Irish are closer to the British than to anyone else, and western Ireland does not have any more "southern" ancestry than the rest of the island, AND on top of that, Connacht in western Ireland is genetically closer to people in Leinster and Dublin on the east coast.
    It's lore like the "Spanish" Welsh; a means to explain darker looking people. Nothing more. Travelers, and they were once more than the vagabonds of today (metal workers, like bards carrying news between villages, etc.) as the Scottish Traveler groups were some of the last to speak gaelic outside the remote Hebrides, once spoke of their peers with darker (hair, eye, skin) complexions.

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  4. #12
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    @Diabolos : would you say there's anything these studies got wrong?
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    @EliasAlucard - it's more to me they are not considering these aspects - the influence of English, the migration of Irish either due to the English or in pursuit of jobs - when they're 'dividing' Ireland. Some people may argue that this isn't a great influence, however, they'd likely be surprised. A single Englishman, for example, in Ireland could have ten kids survive to adulthood & they in turn have ten more each.

    Besides any researcher would tell you, after all, that research is supposed to at least consider, even if just in passing, both internal and external factors when doing research to better understand certain patterns. They guesstimate some genetic variation is due to this could represent the historical rivalry between Munster and Leinster likely because they don't consider other options; but as said it could be much more modern.

    . We first classified surnames according to the following categories; Irish Gaelic, English (which included English or Anglo-Norman surnames), Scottish (which included Scottish or Gallowglass surnames), or other.
    This mentality itself is a tad wrong. Some Irish Gaelic surnames were anglicized into what are meaningless English versions due to ill-translation (e.g. Gaelic means something else) so those "English" surnames may have very well been Irish once rather than English the comment implies. Similarly English (wives) could have married into Gaelic families.

    They should have tried in the Gaeltacht areas (where people still speak Irish as their first language) but I am taking the lack of mention means they didn't consider it.


    We have investigated population structure and diversity within Ireland with high-density genome-wide SNP data of 192 individuals with four generations of Irish ancestry from specific regions around Ireland.
    Finally, the mention of four generations in an area may sound impressive for the 192 references but that still puts the norm ancestry after the Industrial Revolution era. The Industrial Revolution did cause population movement even attracting Europeans from elsewhere in the world throughout the UK. A friend's family would match that four-generation criteria, for example, but past that fourth generation they're not so 'homogeneous'.
    Last edited by Diabolos; 2018-04-08 at 03:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebersdorf View Post
    How long will it take to integrate these findings into the commercial DNA tests? With roots in Counties Cavan & Monaghan as well as up in Derry, I'd sure like to refine my Irish DNA into the proper categories sooner rather than later.
    I wouldn't keep my hopes up. Genetic companies, at least 23andMe anyway, are notoriously slow at updating stuff like this. 23andMe is only useful for the raw data nowadays anyway, snd the same is of course true with most of the other companies. But how useful would Irish samples be anyway? Don't they have enough north-western Europeans included as reference populations?

    @Diabolos : yes, I agee, Gaeltacht and other hardcore Celtic speaking regions would be good sampling. But the issue with these regions, and the British isles in general really, is the Scandinavian admixture, which is also found in Celtic speaking regions, so it's difficult to get an idea of proto-Celtic autosomal DNA from the British isles.
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

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    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diabolos View Post
    Personally, after thorough familial/regional research, am not surprised Ulster & Munster are different. You can get some not-so-British looking Irish from these regions; including a relative but DNA/relatives doesn't support a npe for the nearly East Central European look.
    In terms of physical appearance I find Leinster to have the most people who have an almost English "Saxon" sort of look, with Connacht next, of all the Irish. I see very little difference in phenotype between people from Leinster, Connacht, and the majority of English. A lot of ruddy blonde types, pointy featured types.. I find a lot of Ulster Catholics and people from Munster to look very distinct, almost like a mixture of a dark French look with some Scandinavian, and to not look the way I think of the English, and more round-featured. There might be some parallels in Cornwall but that is about it.

    And yes I know all English have some degree of pre-Saxon, Celtic ancestry (higher in western England such as the West Country, border regions with Wales like Cumbria and Shropshire, etc) but in some parts of Ireland I see more Germanic features than in others.
    Last edited by tauromenion; 2018-04-11 at 04:22.

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    My guess is Leinster has a significant amount of English DNA especially Wexford, which on the Insular Celtic paper, has many people who are shifted on the PCA plot toward England, and has a significant "SE England" genetic component.

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    In my collection I do have many Irish GEDmatch kits with ancestry from various regions of Ireland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gedmatch King View Post
    In my collection I do have many Irish GEDmatch kits with ancestry from various regions of Ireland.
    Do you have any from hardcore Celtic speaking regions? If so, do they differ from English speaking Irish samples in any notable way?
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gedmatch King View Post
    In my collection I do have many Irish GEDmatch kits with ancestry from various regions of Ireland.
    Can you message me them? Thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Do you have any from hardcore Celtic speaking regions? If so, do they differ from English speaking Irish samples in any notable way?
    Normans and Vikings became Irish speaking early on so most likely not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Do you have any from hardcore Celtic speaking regions?
    I will check if I have any 100% from Gaeltacht.

    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    Can you message me them? Thanks
    I can exchange them for some interesting kits.

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