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Thread: FBI cracks the genetic profile of a 4,000 year old Egyptian mummy (Djehutynakht)346 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Nope, that is not my Argument cause Sub Saharan Africans are not the only populations that exist in Africa. My Argument is that the Ancestry of the African continent is not fully resolved. We dont know where North African dna stops and starts in relation to SW Asia. So taking a population like those in Chad or Ethiopia...we dont know how much of their Eurasian is actual Eurasian....or what is related to ANA vs what is Natufian. See North Africa and South West Asia under the same scenario that has played out with that Chinese skeleton. What do you THINK is going to happen? What then happens if people with that skeleton's autosomal persist into the Neolithic only to received back migrants from the Americas in multiple waves over the past 5000 years. You are left with a pretty complicated scenario.
    The Old Afrocentric view...i'm talking at least the "academic" Afrocentric view.....circa Anthroscape/Dodona 2005-2010 was that Ancient Egyptians were like modern East Africans, and modern East Africans were pure SSA populations uninfluenced by Eurasian admixture, or at least very minimally influenced (maybe 10%). Obviously, they gave up on the idea of the Ancient Egyptians being close to West/Central African Bantu types since that was a pipe dream shown by the data, so they focused on East Africans. Ok, sure makes sense.

    The problem is,

    Well for one thing craniometrically Ancient Egyptians are something intermediate between the modern Horn and Levant, sure predynastic Upper Egyptians are closer to the horn..but even Dyanstic Egyptians may be closer to the Levant. And Dynastic Lower Egyptians are unquestionably closer to the Levant.

    Modern East Africans are not Ancient or prehistoric East Africans. The Mota genome from Ethiopia circa 2,500 BC suggests that the modern Horn is much more substantially West Eurasian influenced than it was just 5,000 years ago. This would indeed make the modern East African phenotype substantially mixed.

    Tigre woman



    So the "Afrocentric narrative" that Egypt was populated from the South..ultimately from the Horn by pure SSA populations seems unlikely to me. Because these Horners that Upper Egyptians are clustering craniometrically closer to are actually mixed modern Horners, not prehistroric unmixed Horners.

    Obviously, MUCH more data is needed, and i'm not trying to White Wash East Africans. But my guess is Egypt will be much more Eurasian-like than modern Horners, and my guess is also modern Horners will be a lot more Eurasian-like than prehistoric Horners, whom will be more like Mota.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-03-13 at 19:14.

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  3. #52
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    @Arch Hades - I am not arguing the old "Afrocentric position" from 10 - 15 years ago. Your post is called a strawman.
    The ideas you present are dated because you are arguing against the "ghosts of Egyptsearch's past".
    Those people no longer exist.....if they do they are simply trolling or race loons.

    I dont care about the old Afrocentric position. When looking at old Ethiopian Uni parental markers it was QUITE CLEAR they had admixture.....with a heavy dosage of M/N and M89 derived lineages.

    The argument about Egyptian IMO is really bigger than Egypt. There are much more interesting things that went on and led to the formation of Nile Valley populations. When it comes to cranio metrics its not quite clear how that relates to ancestry....again look at Gobero:

    The improving climate of the Holocene witnessed rapid expansion of human populations into and throughout northern Africa over a relatively short period of time. Scholars have debated the source of these population movements for decades, with little agreement. Archaeological and linguistic evidence suggests a westward expansion from the Nile Valley. Physical anthropological evidence suggests movement from the Maghreb south into the western and central Sahara. Climate data suggests a south to north movement of peoples as populations were drawn further north with an improving climate. This poster presents new evidence from the Holocene assemblage of Gobero combined with comparative data from Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene sites from west and east Africa in addition to the Nile Valley and Maghreb. Data are presented on craniometrics, dental morphology, limb bone proportions, and dental ablation patterns. Craniometric data suggest Early Holocene connections to the Maghreb, an inference supported by dental ablation patterns, with no similarity to the Iwo Eleru skull. Dental morphological data, however, suggest a mosaic of north and sub-Saharan African morphology. Consideration of limb bone proportions presents a tropically adapted body morphology consistent with sub-Saharan African affinities for all burials from Gobero. Both dental morphological and long bone data sets indicate population continuity throughout the Holocene sequences at Gobero, which contradicts the craniometric data. These different signals must be interpreted cautiously given the challenges with spatio-temporal variation and access to archaeological samples of the appropriate age for evolutionary comparisons.
    Look at all this juicy data (pearls to swine) and we have people reducing it down to a war between Negroids and Caucasoid. When i read the above passage it at least seems to me that we are speaking about Africans.....Populations that have been there for extensive periods of time and not new comers. The ONLY thing that ties them to Eurasians is are peoples ideas about the "Caucasoid" phenotype and where it originated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    Is your argument that Arabs are actually Africans, therefore Naufians are African?




    If that was the case it still wouldn't make them any closer to subsaharan Africans, who are miles off to the right on the above chart.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/059311v1
    Natufians on global PCA. lol



    Natufians are so African going by a Fixation index they're as related to Yoruba as Karelian Hunter Gatherers from European Russia and Finland are.

    From Laz 2016


    So basically, when the ancestors of the EHGs left Africa 60K+ years ago, they were also the ancestors of Natufians.

    So what does that mean, when we get Ancient Egyptian genomes and they show a 60-70% Natufian related component? We know the New Kingdom-Roman era ones showed 50% but my guess is the earlier ones will show even more.

    It means the Ancient Egytpians will belong overwhelmingly to the Out of African branch of mankind. Case closed. It doesnt really matter if these people were wandering the Sahara Desert/the Southern Coast of the Mediterranean the entire time, or if they migrated back from Eurasia. I actually think most of it is due to back migration from West Eurasia which started in the EpiPaleolithic and got even bigger during the Neolithic..but whatever the case it's the phylogeny that matters not the geography.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    It means the Ancient Egytpians will belong overwhelmingly to the Out of African branch of mankind. Case closed. It doesnt really matter if these people were wandering the Sahara Desert/the Southern Coast of the Mediterranean the entire time, or if they migrated back from Eurasia. I actually think most of it is due to back migration from West Eurasia which started in the EpiPaleolithic and got even bigger during the Neolithic..but whatever the case it's the phylogeny that matters not the geography.
    Here you go again. It DOES matter when you are trying to figure out WHO came from WHERE migrated to WHERE and mixed with WHO. That's the point....I think you know whats up and certain scenarios simply help you sleep better. Do you know what "Phylogeny" even means? I want to clarify, you want to obfuscate. I have seen this before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Here you go again. It DOES matter when you are trying to figure out WHO came from WHERE migrated to WHERE and mixed with WHO. That's the point....I think you know whats up and certain scenarios simply help you sleep better. Do you know what "Phylogeny" even means? I want to clarify, you want to obfuscate. I have seen this before.
    Of course I know what phylogeny means. What do you think I am, an idiot?

    I'm not trying to obfuscate anything, I just don't want say i'm certain about something i'm not. I'm actually being very honest. I do not know where Basal Eurasian's homeland is, or where it's major expansion expanded from. I can give you my reason's for why I think most of it's presence in current North Africa represents backflow from Southern West Eurasia that started in the Epipaleolithic if you want, though, and that I think it's major expansion expanded out of Southern West Eurasia (probably the Arabian Peninsula). Not only that, but it appears modern North Africans also have a significant amount of ancestry of even the Crown Eurasian line. Taforalt for instance even carries Significant Crown Eurasian ancestry.

    I am certain that Basal Eurasian was a genetic brother to the Main/Crown Eurasian line though, Laz 2018 settled that didn't they?

    Thus, for a Deep population with 0% absolute Vindija-related ancestry (hence -2.2% relative to Ust’Ishim, taking this estimate from Table S5.2), we estimate that f4(Deep, Tianyuan; Ust’Ishim, Chimp)=-0.022*0.436 ≈ -0.0096. This is similar to the drift length of 11/1000=0.011 estimated for the drift length shared by Ust’Ishim/Tianyuan to the exclusion of Basal Eurasians in the qpGraph model (Supplementary Information section 2; Fig. 2). Note also that f4(Sub-Saharan African, Tianyuan, Ust’Ishim, Chimp) is maximized for Sub-Saharan African=Mota (Fig. S5.2) with a value of -0.031±0.0008. Thus, we can estimate that Basal Eurasians share 0.031-0.0096 ≈ ~0.021 units of genetic drift with other non-Africans after their split from eastern Africans like Mota; this is estimated as (15+8)/1000=0.023 by the qpGraph model. The fact that the genetic drift before and after the Basal Eurasian split is estimated similarly by the admixture graph model of Fig. 2 (which uses no archaic samples or Chimp) and Extended Data Fig. 868 (which uses archaic ancestry estimated using Altai, Chimp, and Denisova as outgroups) provides two independent lines of evidence for our estimates of these quantities, suggesting that ~2/3 of the drift since the split from East Africans is shared by Basal Eurasians and an additional ~1/3 is shared by non-Basal Eurasian non-Africans. This suggests that the Basal Eurasians (so named because they occupy a basal position in the phylogeny of Eurasians10) did in fact experience most of the common bottleneck shared by Eurasians. (Note also, that if we used the lower (1.6%) estimate of absolute Neandertal ancestry in Ust’Ishim from the f4-ratio, this would imply even more shared genetic drift between Basal Eurasians and other non-Africans, since then f4(Deep, Tianyuan; Ust’Ishim, Chimp)=-0.016*0.436 ≈-0.007.)"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...23079.full.pdf


    And this is why heavily Basal Eurasian admixed populations, like the Natufians, are not showing much closer relationship to Sub-Saharan groups than Eurasian populations with no or little Basal Eurasian ancestry, like Mesolithic Russian Hunter Gatherers or Ancient North Eurasians or whatever.

    As far as the whole race debate thing, I don't think it matters that much. I mean if you live in the USA like I do, me and you are geographically closer to one another, but my ancestry is shared by those who currently live in Europe, while most of yours is shared with those who live in Sub-Saharan Africa.

    And regarding the other post, yeah I wasnt trying to straw man you. I know you are not arguing the things like the old Afrocentric crowd used to on Anthroscape. I'm not sure if Charlie Bass/Game Theory and company though do not still believe what I wrote, though. And that whole 'model' I just find to be extremely unlikely at this point.

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    depiction of Djehutynakht from his coffin:



    He probably had a lot of Anatolian farmer type ancestry, which might explain his European hunter-gatherer mtDNA.
    Last edited by Reason1234; 2019-03-13 at 23:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Here you go again. It DOES matter when you are trying to figure out WHO came from WHERE migrated to WHERE and mixed with WHO. That's the point....I think you know whats up and certain scenarios simply help you sleep better. Do you know what "Phylogeny" even means? I want to clarify, you want to obfuscate. I have seen this before.

    He's still talking the same argument in circles, as always, why do you still bother trying to educate that guy? Until we get more samples of ancient Egyptian aDNA his point is moot, not even worth considering.
    Paxhumana died a long time ago Anodyne, GET OVER IT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    depiction of Djehutynakht from his coffin:



    He probably had a lot of Anatolian farmer type ancestry, which might explain his European hunter-gatherer mtDNA.
    I think the Anatolian farmer component will be a 2ndary component in Ancient Egypt. The biggest one will be the Natufian-related component.

    The early Neolithic farmers in Morroco circa 5,500 BC (IAM) are very Natufian like and show 90% continuity to epipaleolithic North Africans like Taforalt, however later Neolithic farmers circa 3,000 BC (KEB) start getting more Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. 3,000 BC is about the beginning of the Old Kingdom in Ancient Egypt.

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=48738

    Though the authors of the study do infer that the Anatolian farmer ancestry in the later Neolithic Morrocans probably came directly from Iberia I think it's likely Egypt experienced the same event and influx of Anatolian farmer related ancestry.

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    Yes. In fact, Berbers can't be modeled ONLY as IAM + KEB. They need additional Levant Neolithic ancestry.
    If anything Ancient Egyptians were very Berber-like genetically, JUST significantly less Iberian - shifted /admixed and more Near-Eastern-like /Levant Neolithic - like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    I think the Anatolian farmer component will be a 2ndary component in Ancient Egypt. The biggest one will be the Natufian-related component.

    The early Neolithic farmers in Morroco circa 5,500 BC (IAM) are very Natufian like and show 90% continuity to epipaleolithic North Africans like Taforalt, however later Neolithic farmers circa 3,000 BC (KEB) start getting more Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. 3,000 BC is about the beginning of the Old Kingdom in Ancient Egypt.

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=48738

    Though the authors of the study do infer that the Anatolian farmer ancestry in the later Neolithic Morrocans probably came directly from Iberia I think it's likely Egypt experienced the same event and influx of Anatolian farmer related ancestry.
    The European/Anatolian farmers who went into Morocco had Y-haplogroup T-M184 or T1a, just like the blue-eyed people who appeared in Israel in the chalcolithic:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05649-9

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...2/191569-1.pdf
    Last edited by Reason1234; 2019-03-15 at 01:13.

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