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Thread: Why do some people promote Uralic Corded Ware/R1a1 link?101 days old

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    Default Why do some people promote Uralic Corded Ware/R1a1 link?

    I have noticed recently that more and more people are trying to promote the link between R1a1 and Corded Ware and Uralic languages.

    An example: "Uralic as a Corded Ware substrate of Indo-Iranian, and loanwords in Finno-Ugric".

    Or here: "Another hint at the role of Corded Ware peoples in spreading Uralic languages into north-eastern Europe, found in mtDNA analysis of the Finnish population"

    What are the reasons for this apparent conspiracy?

    In the past German Nazis identified Corded Ware Culture as proto-Indoeuropean:

    The first Aryans—who might be called 'Proto-IndoEuropeans'—were identified by Kossinna, with the north German Corded Ware culture.
    "Digging for Hitler: The Nazi Archaeologists Search for an Aryan Past", David Barrowclough

    Have preferences of the Nazis changed recently? If so - why?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2018-04-11 at 14:18.

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    His effort to link the actual expansion of Finno-Ugric to Corded Ware territory, linking it also partially to population movements from the Seima-Turbino phenomenon – probably associated with the initial expansion of N1c lineages – is another good example of convergence of the different anthropological theories thanks to recent Genomic studies.

    I predicted that haplogroup N arrived probably to the region west of the Urals with the Sejma-Turbino phenomenon, and that it expanded quite late, probably through founder effects. A late arrival to the region leaves obviously (safe for these researchers and others working with old ideas) only the Corded Ware culture (represented by steppe admixture and mainly haplogroup R1a-Z645) as the vector of expansion of Uralic languages, which show obviously a dialectalization process and regional expansion much older than 500 BC…
    Mittnik et al. (2018) found that haplogroup N in north-eastern Europe arrived there after 500 calBCE and genetic evidence suggests that Uralic-speaking populations were surprisingly non-existent in Northern Europe during the Bronze Age. Uralic-speaking populations with haplogroup N arrived in north-eastern Europe from Siberia much later than the hunter-gatherer population with R1a did. The Corded Ware culture ended in the early Bronze Age (2,000–1,500 BC) and it's unlikely that the Corded Ware culture was the vector of expansion of Uralic languages much older than 500 BC as the author of the IE blog theorized.

    Gene-flow into the Eastern Baltic after the Bronze Age

    Modern Eastern Baltic populations cluster with Baltic BA on the PCA plot and exhibit among all modern populations the highest shared genetic drift with ancient Baltic populations (Supplementary Fig. 2), but show substantial differences to samples from the Bronze Age. The statistic D(Lithuanian, Baltic BA; X, Mbuti) reveals significantly positive results for many modern Near Eastern and Southern European populations (Supplementary Fig. 6a). Limited gene-flow from more south-western neighbouring regions after the Bronze Age is sufficient to explain this pattern, as nearly all modern populations besides Estonians, especially for Central and Western Europe, have a higher amount of farmer ancestry than Lithuanians.

    In contrast, the statistic D(Estonian, BA Baltic; X, Mbuti) gives significant positive hits for East Asian and Siberian populations (Supplementary Fig. 6b).

    None of our male Bronze Age individuals carry Y-haplogroup N, which is found in modern Europeans in highest frequencies in Finland and the Baltic states34. Instead, we observe a high frequency of R1a Y-haplogroups.

    We suggest that the Siberian and East Asian related ancestry in Estonia, and Y-haplogroup N in north-eastern Europe, where it is widespread today, arrived there after the Bronze Age, ca. 500 calBCE, as we detect neither in our Bronze Age samples from Lithuania and Latvia. As Uralic speaking populations of the Volga-Ural region34 show high frequencies of haplogroup N34, a connection was proposed with the spread of Uralic language speakers from the east that contributed to the male gene pool of Eastern Baltic populations and left linguistic descendants in the Finno-Ugric languages Finnish and Estonian44, 45. A potential future direction of research is the identification of the proximate population that contributed to the arrival of this eastern ancestry into Northern Europe.
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 2018-04-12 at 08:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    I have noticed recently that more and more people are trying to promote the link between R1a1 and Corded Ware and Uralic languages.

    An example: "Uralic as a Corded Ware substrate of Indo-Iranian, and loanwords in Finno-Ugric".

    Or here: "Another hint at the role of Corded Ware peoples in spreading Uralic languages into north-eastern Europe, found in mtDNA analysis of the Finnish population"

    What are the reasons for this apparent conspiracy?

    In the past German Nazis identified Corded Ware Culture as proto-Indoeuropean:



    "Digging for Hitler: The Nazi Archaeologists Search for an Aryan Past", David Barrowclough

    Have preferences of the Nazis changed recently? If so - why?
    Herbert Jankuhn was the major excavator of the Third Reich. ( Somehow the Nazis did not take notice of his un-German descent.)
    After he had been to southern Russia in 1942/3 to loot - others say it was a scientific -... ( Gothic) artefacts and study the region, he wrote this in a private letter:
    "... Außerdem ist das Gebiet für uns auch in Hinsicht auf die Indogermanisierung im Südosten zur Steinzeit von größter Bedeutung."
    Here you go: southern Russia -Steppe!! He was on to the right thing.

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    I understand there are 3 options more or less possible today:

    A) PIE came from the South (Caucasus/Iran) with R1b or some other "southern" lines and in turn IEsed R1a1 people from Eastern Europe (who previously were speaking something else).

    B) both R1a and R1b were present in the PIE Ukrainian steppe homeland, but they split early (along Satem and Centum line?)

    C) R1a were orginal PIEs who left 2 direct descendants Indo-Iranians and Balto-Slavs while R1b people were originaly not IE, and some of them in Western Europe were gradually IEsed by CWC people.


    So are people trying to force Uralic langauge family on R1a1 CWC doing this because they are rooting for the option A?

    EDIT. By the way even Davidski from Eurogenes seems to be accepting the possibility of option A:

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski
    I haven't discussed this with David Reich, so I don't know what he's basing his theory on exactly and how confident he is in his prediction.

    You would have to e-mail him and ask what the story is behind that. Keep in mind, however, that guys like this never have pet theories. They will always move with the data.

    If I had to guess, then I'd say that it boils down to a very simple and logical inference from the currently available data, which show that a new culture and way of life appeared on the steppe just as the genetic structure of the people there shifted in a big way and became more southern.

    Hence, it's likely that a new language came along with the new culture and economic package, so if Yamnaya was Indo-European, which it probably was, then Indo-European languages came from south of the steppe.
    Something like this:



    ?

    EDIT2: So Nordicism lost long time ago (typically nordic lineages as I1 occured to be mainly local), then Levantinism lost (Levantive ancestry came to Europe in Neolithic and doesn't seem to be related with IE), and now Kurganism is starting to loose with "West Asianism"?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2018-04-13 at 17:29.

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    The point was that there was logic behind it, but no, not really accepting it.

    There's actually now evidence of movements from the steppe to Iran during the Bronze Age, not the other way around.

    That R1b-Z2103 guy is just the tip of the ice berg there.

    By the way, please don't promote kooky Carlos by linking to his website. Reading his stuff will rot your brain.

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    Is it far-fetched to suggest that some of the Finnish R1a might be from Corded Ware R1a proto-Indo-Iranian descendants who came into contact with proto-Uralics and assimilated into the Uralic speaking population?

    I guess that would have to mean Finns would have to have R1a-Z93, so it doesn't seem likely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Is it far-fetched to suggest that some of the Finnish R1a might be from Corded Ware R1a proto-Indo-Iranian descendants who came into contact with proto-Uralics and assimilated into the Uralic speaking population?
    Such view seems reasonable IMHO.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    The point was that there was logic behind it, but no, not really accepting it.

    There's actually now evidence of movements from the steppe to Iran during the Bronze Age, not the other way around.

    That R1b-Z2103 guy is just the tip of the ice berg there.
    Yeah, by old school maps like this still bother me a little bit:







    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    By the way, please don't promote kooky Carlos by linking to his website. Reading his stuff will rot your brain.
    Indeed, he is quite strange to say the least.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2018-04-29 at 11:54.

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