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Thread: Corvids shall evolve and replace mankind.122 days old

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    Maybe. It's probably a matter of having the right IQ genotypes that "unlock" higher intelligence.
    It's more like genes that allow for higher rate or receptivity of neural plasticity, especially during critical periods. I read a secondary source about research on this. Note, there is a correlation between longer juvenile stage and more intelligence. Moreover, paedomorphism has been correlated with higher intelligence.

    Humans weren't around 300 million years ago, maybe proto-mammals were, I'm not sure, have to check it out. But one of the earliest primate specimen, is the lemur-like darwinius, and that's like a 50 million years old species.
    Excuse me, I meant to say mammals and birds diverged three-hundred million years ago, but I suppose I am wrong in that regard. I have to look more into evolutionary history in-depth. You seem to have more nuanced knowledge in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Word among neuroscientists, is that intelligence isn't primarily determined by how big the brain is, but rather, how big it is in relation to the specimen's body size. I think that seems reasonable. Otherwise, whales would be ruling the planet.
    This is true, which is why I mentioned their "Encephalization Quotient is high", but we can still speculate about the nature of how neuronal circuits are optimized between different species of a genus of different sizes. However, that is too much for the current juncture of science.

    Anyway, going by neurons alone, we're only beaten by the African elephant and the long-finned pilot whale:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ber_of_neurons
    I think it's the way the circuits and their rhythmic dynamics relate on a mesoscopic-level that's most important. Granted, the presence of spindle neurons are correlated with intelligence in some species...

    Number of neurons may not mean much though. We still have a long way to go, considering Neuroscience is an infant field.

    That's impressive. It means they have a high enough intelligence to be aware of danger. But then again, can't dogs and cats also distinguish human faces?
    I have to look more into it. On a somewhat related note, dogs recently passed Sniff test of self-recognition, which was a major breakthrough in animal cognition research.
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2018-04-17 at 09:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Moreover, paedomorphism has been correlated with higher intelligence.
    What? In animals or in humans? I don't see how paedomorphism has a connection to intelligence, whatsoever. Then again, dolphins look quite baby-like, so who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    This is true, which is why I mentioned their "Encephalization Quotient is high", but we can still speculate about the nature of how neuronal circuits are optimized between different species of a genus of different sizes. However, that is too much for the current juncture of science.
    Personally I've always thought the brain to body size ratio seems a bit illogical. Like , if ants were around the same size, but had much bigger heads, would they be as intelligent as humans then? I think brain size per se, should matter more than whatever the size the body is, but of course, also how optimized the brain is for higher intelligence, which it theoretically should be, the bigger the brain is. At least it should have a higher capacity for intelligence, if it's a huge brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    I think it's the way the circuits and their rhythmic dynamics relate on a mesoscopic-level that's most important. Granted, the presence of spindle neurons are correlated with intelligence in some species...

    Number of neurons may not mean much though. We still have a long way to go, considering Neuroscience is an infant field.
    As far as spindle neurons go, I'd say, two factors are important here:

    1) Overall amount of neurons.

    2) The percentage of these neurons, being in the cerebral cortex.

    So for example, going by that list, African elephants have 257 billion neurons, yet only 5.6 billion neurons in the cerebral cortex; that's 2.17% of the neurons located in the cerebral cortex. Humans on the other hand, have 86 billion neurons, but an impressive 16 billion neurons in the cerebral cortex, which is 18.6% of the total amount of the human neurons, in the cerebral cortex. Now this is where it gets interesting: gorillas have 33.4 billion neurons, and of that, 9.1 billion neurons in the cerebral cortex, which is 27.2% of the gorilla neurons found in the cerebral cortex. Our closest relative, the chimpanzee, has 28 billion neurons, and 6.2 billion in the cerebral cortex, which is 22.14% of the chimpanzee's neurons, in the cerebral cortex. So if percentage of neurons found in the cerebral cortex was everything, that would mean gorillas and orangutans would be smarter than us, but their overall neurons, both in the entire brain/nervous system, and the neurons in their cerebral cortex, is lower than ours. So as far as correlating intelligence with neurons, I think it's fair to say that it must be both quantity and quality, for neurons to correlate with intelligence.

    Now this is where it gets even more interesting: the long-finned pilot whale (a large dolphin species), has 37.2 billion neurons in its cerebral cortex, which is more than twice that of humans. Not sure how much their total neurons is, but anyway, here's the study:

    Quote Originally Posted by Abstract
    For the first time, we show that a species of dolphin has more neocortical neurons than any mammal studied to date including humans. These cell numbers are compared across various mammals with different brain sizes, and the function of possessing many neurons is discussed. We found that the long-finned pilot whale neocortex has approximately 37.2 × 109 neurons, which is almost twice as many as humans, and 127 × 109 glial cells. Thus, the absolute number of neurons in the human neocortex is not correlated with the superior cognitive abilities of humans (at least compared to cetaceans) as has previously been hypothesized. However, as neuron density in long-finned pilot whales is lower than that in humans, their higher cell number appears to be due to their larger brain.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4244864/

    And some more from the study:

    An animal's cognitive capability is widely used as an indicator of mental capacity or intelligence (Roth and Dicke, 2005). Advanced cognitive capabilities are observed in a variety of animals. For example, social transmission of complex songs has been observed in both birds and mysticetes (Payne and Mcvay, 1971; Mundinger, 1980), self-recognition has been observed in several mammals (including three species of dolphins) (Delfour and Marten, 2001; Reiss and Marino, 2001; Roth and Dicke, 2005; Plotnik et al., 2006) as well as in magpies (Prior et al., 2008), and the use of tools has been observed in dolphins (Krutzen et al., 2005), great apes, elephants (Roth and Dicke, 2005), and birds (Roth and Dicke, 2005). The bird brain, however, is structurally very different from the mammalian brain (Reiner et al., 2005), and the number of neurons in birds is much less than that found in mammals (unpublished data). Across animal classes, therefore, the number of neurons is not equal to cognitive capability; rather, these capabilities appear to be cases of convergent evolution (Emery, 2006).
    That said, ravens have 1.2 billion neurons in their cerebral cortex, and 2.171 billion neurons all in all, so that's 55.27% of their neurons, located in their cerebral cortex. Quite impressive.

    I do think the total amount of neurons, and the percentage of that amount of neurons located in the cerebral cortex, is a relative measure of intelligence, or at least it should be possible to correlate it with intelligence. But of course it's not just about neurons, but also about certain IQ genotypes that unlock higher intelligence, synapses and so on. No one has ever argued that lobsters with their 100,000 neurons, are intelligent, but scientists do argue that dolphins are intelligent. I don't think it's a coicidence. The more neurons, the higher the chances for brain complexity that could enable higher intelligence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    What? In animals or in humans? I don't see how paedomorphism has a connection to intelligence, whatsoever. Then again, dolphins look quite baby-like, so who knows.
    BEGIN QUOTE:
    How does a creature hold on a big brain while the rest of its body shrinks? Birds managed the trick the way we did: by keeping a babyish head and face. It's an evolutionary process called paedomorphosis (literally, "child formation"), whereby a creature evolves in such a way as to retain juvenile traits after it matures.

    When an international group of scientists recently compared the skulls of birds, theropods, and crocodilians, they discovered that i most dinosaurs and crocodilians, the skull shape of the animal changed over a lifetime. "During juvenile to adult growth in non-avian dinosaurs, their toothed snouts and faces expanded but their brains increased proportionally significantly less," explains Arkhat Azbhanov of Harvard University who worked on the study. "Great examples of this are sauropods and stegosaurs with tiny brains relative to their large bodies." In both proto- and modern birds, on the other hand, the skull maintained its youthful shape as the birds matured, leaving plenty of space for enormous eyes and enlarged brains. "When we look at birds," says Abzhanov, "we are looking at juvenile dinosaurs."
    As it happens, we humans may have pulled just such a Peter Pan -- like move. As adults, we share the big head, flat face, small jaw, and patchy body hair of baby primates. Paedomorphosis may have enabled us to develop bigger brains, just as it did in birds.
    Quote is from The Genius of Birds, pages 47-48.

    It referenced this article:
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0530212105.htm

    which it theoretically should be, the bigger the brain is
    On a both a functional and structurual circuit-level, this is not true. Strength of pathways is also important. That's what I was trying to point out.

    At least it should have a higher capacity for intelligence, if it's a huge brain.
    There is correlation. It is not always so.

    1) Overall amount of neurons.

    2) The percentage of these neurons, being in the cerebral cortex.
    I agree with your correlation, of course. It's not causally reducible to that for obvious reasons.

    also about certain IQ genotypes that unlock higher intelligence, synapses and so on. No one has ever argued that lobsters with their 100,000 neurons, are intelligent, but scientists do argue that dolphins are intelligent. I don't think it's a coicidence. The more neurons, the higher the chances for brain complexity that could enable higher intelligence.
    Intelligence largely has to do with heightened neuroplasticity and particular genes that strongly express it. Some brains remain plastic for longer and at a better rate.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...78929315301043
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20410105

    I had another very good article, but I lost it. Dammit. I'm just going to post those then, I guess. A little sad I can't find the article, but you can google more about the genes associated with brains that remain plastic for longer and at a better rate.

    However, it should be noted, just because one has the genes correlated with heightened or longer neuroplasticity and IQ, doesn't mean one will necessarily be more intelligent (e.g., lifestyle choices or circumstances); there's just a much higher probability. It just means one has more potential in that avenue. It's a much stronger tilt.
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2018-04-17 at 19:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    I agree with your correlation, of course. It's not causally reducible to that for obvious reasons.
    I'm not saying intelligence solely depends on neurons, but with higher amount of neurons, there's more potential for higher intelligence. At least neurons are one more requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Intelligence largely has to do with heightened neuroplasticity and particular genes that strongly express it. Some brains remain plastic for longer and at a better rate.
    Yeah. So that begs the question, why would crows select for these genes? It's not like their lifestyle is heavily pressing them to select high IQ genes. And even if it did, it would take a damn long time before they became seriously intelligent. And they just don't have that time right now, given how we're destroying the biosphere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    I'm not saying intelligence solely depends on neurons, but with higher amount of neurons, there's more potential for higher intelligence. At least neurons are one more requirement.
    I think functional connectivity is more important than number of neurons. Moreover, the strength of the brain's neural pathways associated with higher-level thinking are also important.

    Yeah. So that begs the question, why would crows select for these genes? It's not like their lifestyle is heavily pressing them to select high IQ genes. And even if it did, it would take a damn long time before they became seriously intelligent. And they just don't have that time right now, given how we're destroying the biosphere.
    Their tool use is pretty complex. I think intelligence largely evolved due to using tools. The most important tool humans in past times found was fire, as explained several posts above.


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    My conclusion:

    I hypothesize that the neural connections of a crow or raven's dorsal ventricular ridge (DVR) of the pallium are better optimized and more robust, on both a functional and structural level, than the bonobo and chimp's neocortex.

    https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...431-56469-0_12
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2018-04-21 at 09:16.

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    Neurons density is at work here. Raccoons have an ape-like density of neurons, they're highly intelligent smartasses.

    Many attempts have been made to correlate degrees of both animal and human intelligence with brain properties. With respect to mammals, a much-discussed trait concerns absolute and relative brain size, either uncorrected or corrected for body size. However, the correlation of both with degrees of intelligence yields large inconsistencies, because although they are regarded as the most intelligent mammals, monkeys and apes, including humans, have neither the absolutely nor the relatively largest brains. The best fit between brain traits and degrees of intelligence among mammals is reached by a combination of the number of cortical neurons, neuron packing density, interneuronal distance and axonal conduction velocity—factors that determine general information processing capacity (IPC), as reflected by general intelligence. The highest IPC is found in humans, followed by the great apes, Old World and New World monkeys. The IPC of cetaceans and elephants is much lower because of a thin cortex, low neuron packing density and low axonal conduction velocity. By contrast, corvid and psittacid birds have very small and densely packed pallial neurons and relatively many neurons, which, despite very small brain volumes, might explain their high intelligence. The evolution of a syntactical and grammatical language in humans most probably has served as an additional intelligence amplifier, which may have happened in songbirds and psittacids in a convergent manner.
    Bears and lions could clearly benefit from the human technique, Herculano-Houzel said, if only they could master the finer arts of gastronomy. But there's a different member of Carnivora that manages to punch above its class, despite its small body size and small cortex: the raccoon. Raccoon brains are about the same size as cat brains, the researchers reported, but raccoon cortexes are packed with a whopping 438 million neurons — nearly as many as a large dog or hyena has. It's not really clear how raccoons pull this off, Herculano-Houzel said, but the numbers are impressive.

    "There are so many neurons; to give you an idea, that if you gave me those numbers, I would tell you this is a primate brain," she said.
    And Raccoons have "hands"
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2018-04-21 at 09:28.
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    Yeah, what I meant was I think optimal degrees of synaptic connectivity is the most important, but Computational Neuroscientists are currently learning more about this.

    Our theory predicts that the dimensions of the cerebellar granule-cell and Drosophila Kenyon-cell representations
    are maximized at degrees of synaptic connectivity that match those observed anatomically, showing that sparse connectivity is sometimes superior to dense connectivity. When input synapses are subject to supervised plasticity, however, dense wiring becomes advantageous, suggesting that the type of plasticity exhibited by a set of synapses is a major determinant of connection density
    Source:
    http://www.cell.com/neuron/pdf/S0896...17)30054-5.pdf

    Even if there is more dense connectivity, this does not necessarily mean species is more intelligent. There is a correlation, however, but I do think there is more to it as this article may hint.

    Basically, what I'm saying, is that the synaptic connectivity on a functional level is most important, but that's still being researched on more. I hypothesized that corvids have more optimal degrees of synaptic connectivity in their dorsal ventricular ridge (DVR) compared to the neocortex of bonobos and chimps. I hypothesized the bandwidth of activity around their DVR is more robust.
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2018-04-21 at 22:32.

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    It could also be due to cultural coevolution with humans that crows have become so smart:



    From the cave walls at Lascaux to the last painting by Van Gogh, from the works of Shakespeare to those of Mark Twain, there is clear evidence that crows and ravens influence human culture. Yet this influence is not unidirectional, say the authors of this fascinating book: people profoundly influence crow culture, ecology, and evolution as well. Examining the often surprising ways that crows and humans interact, John Marzluff and Tony Angell contend that those interactions reflect a process of “cultural coevolution.” They offer a challenging new view of the human-crow dynamic—a view that may change our thinking not only about crows but also about ourselves.

    Featuring more than 100 original drawings, the book takes a close look at the influences people have had on the lives of crows throughout history and at the significant ways crows have altered human lives. In the Company of Crows and Ravens illuminates the entwined histories of crows and people and concludes with an intriguing discussion of the crow-human relationship and how our attitudes toward crows may affect our cultural trajectory. As the authors state in their preface: “Crows and people share similar traits and social strategies. To a surprising extent, to know the crow is to know ourselves."
    Quote taken from here:
    https://www.amazon.com/Company-Crows...dp/0300122551/

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    All right, I have worked out my hypothesis after looking over a new study.

    My hypothesis is this: The "neuronal circuitry associated with higher intelligence is organized in more sparse and efficient manner in [crows/ravens than in non-human Greater Apes], fostering more directed information processing and less cortical activity during reasoning."

    I base this hypothesis on this study:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04268-8
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2018-05-19 at 05:52.

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