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Thread: Was Nietzsche really Polish?156 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Martnen View Post
    But I think autosomal and Y-DNA are equally important. If he's R1a, he's paternally Slavic, even if only slightly
    There are lots of Germans who carry R1a too, so for his Y-DNA to be Slavic, it would require that his R1a is of a typical Polish subclade.

    That said, Nietzsche's anti-Christian rhetoric is more common among Germanic neo-Pagans, than among Poles (I don't think I've ever seen any Pole or Russian go off on an autistic rant about how Christianity cursed Europe, lol). This could also perhaps be, because Nietzsche's influence is stronger in Germanic countries, I guess.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2018-05-16 at 10:08.
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by thetick View Post
    The map is from the 1910 German Empire census so it is certainly possible the German Empire could have deliberately modified census results.
    They did modify it, but that map is not from the census. This map below is from the census, and it doesn't show nearly as many German enclaves in the Corridor as the map above, which is not based on the census:



    Quote Originally Posted by thetick View Post
    The 1921 and 1931 Census were AFTER the self declared Germans were removed from the Polish corridor
    There was no any removal of Germans from that area after WW1. There was a population exchange and some Germans also emigrated (mostly those who had been settled there recently). But the main reason for the decline of Germans between 1910 and 1921 was that some of the people who had been counted as Germans in 1910, were later counted as Poles in 1921. Because the census of 1910 inflated the number of Germans.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    There are lots of Germans who carry R1a too, so for his Y-DNA to be Slavic, it would require that his R1a is of a typical Polish subclade.
    Only 50% of Poles carry R1a. So you can be Polish paternally without being R1a, there is a 50% chance. As for German R1a, the vast majority of it are the same subclades as common Polish subclades of R1a.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skomand View Post
    Prussia was a multi-ethnic state, if the inhabitants of a region claimed to be Polish, Sorb, Lithuanian, Kashubian or whatever, they had a point. But they were overwhelmingly Germanized and assimilated and acculturated in history. Mazurians didn't speak pure Polish either, but something of a dialect that split from Old Polish.
    Eastern provinces of Prussia were mostly Polish even based on German sources, such as these:

    Prov. Posen: https://books.google.com/books?id=31...page&q&f=false



    West Prussia: https://books.google.com/books?id=31...page&q&f=false



    Upper Silesia: https://books.google.com/books?id=31...page&q&f=false



    Middle Silesia (Regierungsbezirk Breslau):



    Brandenburg (including Sorbs in Lusatia):

    https://books.google.com/books?id=31...page&q&f=false



    Pommern (Lutheran Kashubians in the eastern part):

    https://books.google.com/books?id=31...page&q&f=false



    East Prussia: https://books.google.com/books?id=Gs...025530&f=false

    For example data for Kreis Allenstein (Olsztyn):



    Polish nationalists even won 1893 election there:



    In 1912 they lost there but still got 1/3 of the vote:



    In Lutheran Masuria support for Polish nationalists was low:



    But in neighbouring Catholic areas it was higher:



    Last edited by Yuval Levental; 2018-05-16 at 12:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    There are lots of Germans who carry R1a too, so for his Y-DNA to be Slavic, it would require that his R1a is of a typical Polish subclade.

    That said, Nietzsche's anti-Christian rhetoric is more common among Germanic neo-Pagans, than among Poles (I don't think I've ever seen any Pole or Russian go off on an autistic rant about how Christianity cursed Europe, lol). This could also perhaps be, because Nietzsche's influence is stronger in Germanic countries, I guess.
    Why Polish? They were Polabians, a different tribe than Polanians. Obviously all Western slavs were called Wends, but that's not their individual tribe. Sure, I go far back with this terminology, but so does Y-DNA.
    The husband who decides to surprise his wife is often very much surprised himself.
    The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    Why Polish? They were Polabians, a different tribe than Polanians. Obviously all Western slavs were called Wends, but that's not their individual tribe. Sure, I go far back with this terminology, but so does Y-DNA.
    Polabians were Lechitic though, and thus more closely related to Poles than to other West Slavs.

    West Slavs can be divided into 3 major subdivisions - Lechitic, Sorbian and Czech-Moravian-Slovak. Poles (together with Kashubians - the vast majority of whom see themselves as just a subgroup of ethnic Poles anyway) are the last living representatives of the Lechites, because Polabians are extinct.

    Some excerpts from an article about the last Polabian-speakers in Lower Saxony:

    It is not clear when did the Drawänopolabian get extinct. Emerentz Schultze, who died in Dolgau in October 1756, is said to be one of the last native speakers fully fluent in the language. But in 1798 in the village of Kremlin (north-west of Dolgau) died a man named Warratz, who had been capable of reciting the Lord's Prayer in Wendish. In 1832, "Neues vaterländisches Archiv" - a local newspaper - reported that some old peasants in the region could still speak Slavic. Similar rumours appeared again in 1845, and then in the second half of the 19th century in the area of Salzwedel. Ethnographer F. Tetzner in 1902 learned from an old teacher, that in Küsten near Lüchow some Slavic phrases, sayings and sentences were still in use in everyday language. In the census of 1890 in Kreis Lüchow, 585 people still declared their ethnicity as Wendish. Norwegian E. Westerlund, who came to Wendland in 1914 to research the language of local populace, found only German-speakers.
    So if Nietzsche was Lechitic, then he was closer to Poles than to anything else.

    As for Sorbs, they are usually considered Non-Lechitic, but a group of their own. And there are two Sorbian languages - Upper Sorbian and Lower Sorbian. One of them is closer to Polish, one to Czech.

    Genetically they seem to be closer to Poles than to Czechs though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    a different tribe than Polanians
    Polanians were ancestral only to Western Poles (Greater Poles), whose homeland is around Posen. Western Poles are the original Poles. But other subgroups of Poles are descended from other Lechitic tribes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles#Ethnography

    Just like Germans are descended from many tribes, Poles are also descended from many tribes.
    Last edited by Yuval Levental; 2018-05-16 at 12:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuval Levental View Post
    Polabians were Lechitic though, and thus more closely related to Poles than to other West Slavs.

    West Slavs can be divided into 3 major subdivisions - Lechitic, Sorbian and Czech-Moravian-Slovak. Poles (together with Kashubians - the vast majority of whom see themselves as just a subgroup of ethnic Poles anyway) are the last living representatives of the Lechites, because Polabians are extinct.

    Some excerpts from an article about the last Polabian-speakers in Lower Saxony:



    So if Nietzsche was Lechitic, then he was closer to Poles than to anything else.

    As for Sorbs, they are usually considered Non-Lechitic, but a group of their own. And there are two Sorbian languages - Upper Sorbian and Lower Sorbian. One of them is closer to Polish, one to Czech.

    Genetically they seem to be closer to Poles than to Czechs though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics



    Polanians were ancestral only to Western Poles (Greater Poles), whose homeland is around Posen. Western Poles are the original Poles. But other subgroups of Poles are descended from other Lechitic tribes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles#Ethnography

    Just like Germans are descended from many tribes, Poles are also descended from many tribes.
    Right, but I'm talking about the Y-DNA, which is older than any ethnic group, such as Poles. Yes they became part of the Polish population, but maybe also the German population, whatever, but they were not "Poles", so the DNA is not necessarily a sign of Polish ancestry, though also modern Polish people who comes from that group have the same Y-DNA.
    The husband who decides to surprise his wife is often very much surprised himself.
    The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    Right, but I'm talking about the Y-DNA, which is older than any ethnic group, such as Poles.
    Actually many subclades are just 1000-1500 years old, so about as old as Poles and Lechites respectively. Most of R1a in Central Europe is very young, suggesting it expanded with the Slavs:

    http://www.gwozdz.org/polishclades.html

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/r1a/
    Last edited by Yuval Levental; 2018-05-16 at 12:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuval Levental View Post
    Actually many subclades are just 1000-1500 years old, so about as old as Poles and Lechites respectively. Most of R1a in Central Europe is very young, suggesting it expanded with the Slavs:

    http://www.gwozdz.org/polishclades.html

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/r1a/
    If that was true, then the groups, who were separate ethnic groups, would have separate Y-DNA, as the males typically stay within their groups.

    Remember what I replied to, Elias wrote:
    it would require that his R1a is of a typical Polish subclade
    However, they were surely Slavs, I don't even remotely question that. What I say is that there were several original groups, some of which were not necessarily Polish (yet), the Germans who have Y-DNA in common with this group could originate directly from the old ethnic groups, and not from "Poles". Obviously that requires they have the Y-DNA in common with the group of people who lived there 1000 years ago, and not the people who lived to the south or east of that region, and I obviously do not know that.

    The first page is a total dread to read, BTW, was it written by that person, Peter Gwozdz? I could not find any relevant info on that page.
    The husband who decides to surprise his wife is often very much surprised himself.
    The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

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    Gents, all of you made a lot of good input and the genetic/ linguistic facts are relevant, yet please remember - Nietzsche had a beef with Bismarckian idea of Great Germany. He believed in multi-centered "German Federation" of sorts, not militaristic, uniformed German Super-Power.
    Nietzsche hated uniformed clueless masses marching to the rythm of snares (sic!). So he sympathized with the most obvious victims of Bismarckian policy - Poles.

    If he was or wasn't distantly Polish do not matter at all. He was a great thinker who is still not fully understood yet. Even his "anti-religious" stance is being contested now. I recently read a polish article where a Catholic philosopher actually defends Nietzsche as someone who was gravely misunderstood.

    Please note his "Willenskraft" is not truly written by him, it is a heavily edited compilation by his retarded, nationalistic sister.
    He wrote in German, I hear it was a truly poetic, beautiful German. He was thinking in German and he argued for Germany's cause.
    He wasn't listened to.

    It is heart warming he found a consolation with his imaginary Polish roots. In his idealized vision of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in times when everyone saw Poland as a "Sick Man of Europe".

    I can openly agree with him, Poland always stood for individualism and "order from chaos", while Bismarckian Germany became a billeted (as living in barracks) nation. I think pre-Bismarckian Germany would never became an open enemy of Poland. At least not to extent of murdering 6 millions Polish citizens.
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2018-05-16 at 14:54.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    If that was true, then the groups, who were separate ethnic groups, would have separate Y-DNA, as the males typically stay within their groups.
    Not if ethnic assimilation was taking place (for example Germanization of Poles, Polonization of Germans).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuval Levental View Post
    Not if ethnic assimilation was taking place (for example Germanization of Poles, Polonization of Germans).
    At that point, yes, post assimilation it could have come from any of the groups. Which is exactly my point, just because it is not the same haplogroup subgroup as in central Poland does not mean that it is not Slavic. I'm not saying whatever it is or isn't, it was just a reply to Elias statement, that it has to be the same, or it would not be Slavic.
    The husband who decides to surprise his wife is often very much surprised himself.
    The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

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