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Thread: Who have the least Indo-European/Steppe/NE Euro ancestry in Europe?519 days old

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    Default Who have the least Indo-European/Steppe/NE Euro ancestry in Europe?

    I imagine it'd have to be one of the following:

    Sardinia
    Sicily
    Malta
    Basque Country

    But who has the least? I'd imagine Sardinians.

    I have NO idea about Finns and Hungarians. They may speak a non-Indo European language, but genetically would it be the same? Neither is genetically very different from their immediate Indo-European speaking neighbors. How they became non-Indo European speaking is something I'd be fascinated to find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    I imagine it'd have to be one of the following:

    Sardinia
    Sicily
    Malta
    Basque Country

    But who has the least? I'd imagine Sardinians.

    I have NO idea about Finns and Hungarians. They may speak a non-Indo European language, but genetically would it be the same? Neither is genetically very different from their immediate Indo-European speaking neighbors. How they became non-Indo European speaking is something I'd be fascinated to find out.
    Hungarians are genetic close to their neighbors. Finns have low north Asian admix but are close to baltic people.
    And balts specially Lithuanians have the most indo-european ancestery today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    I imagine it'd have to be one of the following:

    Sardinia
    Sicily
    Malta
    Basque Country

    But who has the least? I'd imagine Sardinians.

    I have NO idea about Finns and Hungarians. They may speak a non-Indo European language, but genetically would it be the same? Neither is genetically very different from their immediate Indo-European speaking neighbors. How they became non-Indo European speaking is something I'd be fascinated to find out.
    Both Finns and Hungarians are language shifters. Finns might be more IE to Slavs it seems, Hungarians are germanic-slavic Panonnians elite dominated by some Magyars ca. 1k ya.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    Both Finns and Hungarians are language shifters.
    While some part of Finnish genetics is of course based on language shifting, Finns as such are definitely not language shifters fex from IE to Uralic. We however share a lot of Steppe, but Steppe as such is not just IE. Genes don't speak languages. Kar stands for Karelian in the pic.

    Last edited by Huck Finn; 2018-05-21 at 19:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino1990 View Post
    Hungarians are genetic close to their neighbors. Finns have low north Asian admix but are close to baltic people.
    And balts specially Lithuanians have the most indo-european ancestery today.
    I doubt it, Balts(and I guess Finns aswell) seem to be more local HG(mix of EHG + WHG like) shifted rather than Steppe. I think they have less Steppe than both West/East Slavs, Germanics and insular Celts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    While some part of Finnish genetics is of course based on language shifting, Finns as such are definitely not language shifters fex from IE to Uralic. We however share a lot of Steppe, but Steppe as such is not just IE.
    Aren't Finns more similar to Magyar domination model (but older and potentially more admixture took place), just drifted a lot due to isolation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Genes don't speak languages. Kar stands for Karelian in the pic.

    Yep, my thoughts also, until I found this

    It is really exciting to begin to see an association between something biological like these genetics and the culturally transmitted phenomena of language,” said Christopher Geissler GRD ’20, a co-author and linguistics doctoral candidate. “From the perspective of linguistics, the mind is a black box and we’re only beginning to develop tools in neuroscience that can start to look into the box.”

    According to DeMille, the researchers started with a gene called DCDC2, which is associated with dyslexia and the processes for reading.

    The researchers found that READ1 regulates the DCDC2 gene and that there are over 40 different alleles, or variations in populations, in READ1. By examining the alleles present in different populations, they found that a certain subclass of alleles was related to the number of consonants in languages, regardless of genetic relatedness, geographic proximity or language family.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    Both Finns and Hungarians are language shifters. Finns might be more IE to Slavs it seems, Hungarians are germanic-slavic Panonnians elite dominated by some Magyars ca. 1k ya.

    Yep, Finns are mainly language shifters. No one really knows who brought the Baltic Finnic root language to the area where it is spoken today. We definitely know that they were not Finns, it is a scientific fact. It is a fact repeated in thousands studies. The mainstream view is that the Baltic Finnic root was first spoken in Southern Estonia. Then the question about genes. What is the genetic appearance of southern Estonians? Their MtDna and autosomal dna doesn't differ much from their IE-speaking neighbors, neither their Ydna, though Baltic people carry more N1c1 than other Europeans. Back to Finns. They seem to be very mixed, but not very recently. The age of mixing is around 2000 years, only a small Swedish and German admixtures are obvious later. The main event happened in a time frame 2500-1000 yeas ago and was composed of 50 % Estonian invaders, Estonian Vikings to be sarcastic, 30% ancient Scandinavians (definitely not Vikings) and 20% ancient Saami people. This is a rough estimate. Those Estonian Vikings brought the Finnic language to Finland around 1800 years ago and their genetic fingerprints are obvious in Finland. This is also the mainstream view of linguists. But the question who brought the Baltic Finnic root language to the original area of its present day speakers is still open. The fact that all oldest N1c1 clades are found from Finland and Sweden (in the Baltic Sea area) suggests that N1c1 was not the bringer of the Baltic Finnic language, because this contradicts with the origin in Southern Estonia! My view is that the bringer was some until now unknown R1a clade.
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 2018-05-22 at 09:36.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    (...)My view is that the bringer was some until now unknown R1a clade.
    R1a - as an all father of IE and FU?
    Maybe QPR as an Eastern-Eurasian superhaplogroup?
    N1c as a HG haplo that weren't really a language-vehicle (in vein of I1/I2)?
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2018-05-22 at 10:48.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    R1a - as an all father of IE and FU?
    Maybe QPR as an Eastern-Eurasian superhaplogroup?
    I thought first that it must be my favorite soccer team, Queens Park Rangers, but the context didn't exactly match Yeah, R and N are brother haplogroups, like I and J. They lived nearby each other outside West Europe.


    N1c as a HG haplo that weren't really a language-vehicle (in vein of I1/I2)?
    R-men were those chatty and prominent language warriors, more sophisticated than I-men. Men belonging to I* were redneck club men, maybe they belonged to one of the first hunting clubs Sorry my bad English.
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 2018-05-22 at 19:54.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    My view is that the bringer was some until now unknown R1a clade.
    You wish. "Unknown R1a-clade". Why not Martians?

    However, even if there's still lots of leeway for speculation, we're apparently getting new ancient DNA from Estonia in a couple of weeks or so. So far we know that the Y-lineage in Estonian Iron Age tarand burials in Kunda, Hiidemägi is N1c1. How does it fit into your model?

    Classival tarand, as we all know, is a burial construction which has it's origin in the Volga area. Coincidentally the relatively older N1c1 lineages have been found in the same place.

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