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Thread: So David Reich thinks Proto Indo-European came ultimately from Armenia/The South Caucausus306 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Have you read Reich's book? I have, two times in fact, and he makes several statements that are extremely controversial at best.
    Anything of worth as far as African studies in his book?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Anything of worth as far as African studies in his book?
    Not really, in fact he makes some pretty controversial statements with regards to OoA as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    That's just another bold assertion.
    Not really. This topic was settled in the early 20th century. You delusional morons have been POV-pushing nonsense with Anatolian urheimat and whatnot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Sure it's the same cognate which then evolved into similar spoken words. Point is domesticated horses is not a requirement for the cognate of 'horse', Duhh. Simple knowledge of horses is all that's required.
    So how do you propose the proto-Anatolians reached Anatolia from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, by walking? With or without the wheel, of course they rode horses down there. You can't argue that the Anatolians speakers didn't come from the PC steppe by one cognate alone, because the Anatolian languages have too many cognates in common with other IE languages, and real cognates, not "similar cognates" or "similar spoken words" (this is you talking out of your ass because you don't understand anything about linguistics). Proto-Anatolian is simply too similar to other IE languages, which means it also came from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Obviously proto-Anatolian was the first split, which is reflected in how it's more archaic than the other IE branches, but if the original PIE urheimat was in Anatolia, and then a PIE branch migrated to the Pontic-Caspian steppe and spawned all the other branches, Anatolian languages would look far different from the other IE branches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Sociology is considered a science but it's too soft for me to consider a brute fact. Linguistic paleontology is a laughably soft and obscure science. The confidence we can have in it compared to hard sciences is very large.
    It's more scientific than you think. Obviously linguistics isn't as hard as astrophysics, but in any case, a linguistic urheimat is determined by the linguistic evidence, not Dienekes' and your genetic components autism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    How is it close culturally? Aside from Armenia, The languages of most the Caucuses are completely different than the IE languages of Southern Europe, the Afro-Asiatic languages of the Levant and North Africa. Genetically Greeks are closer to people of the Caucasus than to Berbers but genetically Greeks are also closer to Englishmen than to Berbers so genetics doesn't work here. Plus there's no reason for Greeks to be considered the prototype "Mediterraneans".
    Well for your information, Iraqis are Mediterraneans, so said Nordicist Madison Grant :



    The point is we can't determine who is and isn't Mediterranean based on your racial inferiority complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Asserting as fact a favored hypothesis in linguistic paleontology is a joke. Secondly you don't seem to know what the word 'agnostic' nor 'championing' means. Perhaps Reich champions the Caucuses homeland but I don't...I merely consider it, not champion it. Do you understand the difference?
    I understand the difference and I know far better than you anything you think you know (including the definitions of agnostic and championing). Look, there's nothing to consider here. The Kurgan theory is a scientific fact, not a hypothesis, and all the other bullshit hypotheses have no case, because they don't click with the linguistic evidence. It's that simple. If you don't understand that, well, you can go on and on about irrelevant genetic components.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    I didn't say the Kurgan hypothesis was dependent upon this...your scenario is plausible. But if we get Hittite Elite genomes and even they don't any steppe admixture a very bizarre scenario will have had to have taken place.
    It's expected that the Hittites won't have had much steppe admixture, because the proto-Anatolians wasn't a huge group that settled in Anatolia. If they didn't have any wheels, that means they were a small group of horse riders who reached Anatolia, small but big enough to influence the locals with a language shift and some other cultural influences like minor aspects of proto-Indo-European religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Yeah, I the man who genetically clusters in Switzerland and around populations of the modern Alps region has an inferiority complex to the guy who clusters in modern Syria and TUrkey. Riiigghhhttt
    ^^ Exactly. I rest my case. This is probably the most important argument as to why you suffer from a huge racial inferiority complex; oh I'm so secure and self-confident because I cluster among Swiss people!!!!! What self-confident man in his right mind talks like this? My self-esteem comes from my genetic position among the Swiss, that makes me almost Germanic, which means I'm almost human! What a fucking faggot. A real insecure faggot.

    Dude, you're a textbook OWD case

    And by the way, if we ever met in the ring in an MMA fight or something like that, I'd fuck you up fo' real. After that, you'd really feel inferior What next, are you going to brag about how tall you are and therefore self-confident? By your own insecure rationale, anyone who's 1 cm taller than you, and clusters slightly closer to Germans and Scandinavians than you do, must be more secure than you are.

    Just admit it, you're a faggot. You've obviously never had any real self-confidence to begin with. And by the way, mixed people are more often insecure and suffer from identity crises and so on

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager View Post
    Obviously many on this site think they know more than a real scientist such as Reich.
    Obviously, many here do. You do understand that a lot of scientists don't know what they're talking about, right? Besides, Reich's expertise isn't linguistics. This is a typical flaw among many scientists, that just because their expertise is in let's say, astrophysics, they think that makes them authorities on every other field, take say, biology. Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist and creationist, really know what he's talking about when it comes to the Big Bang and astronomy in general, but you know what? He denies evolution:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_R...strophysicist)

    Just because he knows what he's talking about in astrophysics, doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about in evolutionary theory. David Reich is a similar case, except that he isn't religious, but he really doesn't understand linguistics if he's championing anything other than the Kurgan theory.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2018-08-10 at 18:45.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    So how do you propose the proto-Anatolians reached Anatolia from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, by walking? With or without the wheel, of course they rode horses down there. You can't argue that the Anatolians speakers didn't come from the PC steppe by one cognate alone, because the Anatolian languages have too many cognates in common with other IE languages, and real cognates, not "similar cognates" or "similar spoken words" (this is you talking out of your ass because you don't understand anything about linguistics). Proto-Anatolian is simply too similar to other IE languages, which means it also came from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Obviously proto-Anatolian was the first split, which is reflected in how it's more archaic than the other IE branches, but if the original PIE urheimat was in Anatolia, and then a PIE branch migrated to the Pontic-Caspian steppe and spawned all the other branches, Anatolian languages would look far different from the other IE branches.
    I'm saying the word horse right now..does that mean I've domesticated horses or own domesticated horses.?A common origin for that word doesn't necessarily imply domestication. You've been debunked on this brah. Sorry but it just doesn't logically follow as a necessity. Possibility sure..Necessarily? No.

    Reich thinks PIE came from the South Caucasus...so if this were true they'd literally just have to walk to Asia Minor a few Hundred miles over a few hundred years and have a word for horse. Not a difficult task.



    Well for your information, Iraqis are Mediterraneans, so said Nordicist Madison Grant
    Well they have a huge Natufian component (and Natufians evolved around The East and South Mediterranean), and they also have some Neolithic Anatolian..(whom evolved around the shores of the North Mediterranean)..but they also have other components too like Iran Neolithic, sub Saharan African...even some very minor ANE..so they are not defacto Mediterraneans by any means. They do have some significant ancestry though sure.



    The point is we can't determine who is and isn't Mediterranean based on your racial inferiority complex.
    We determine it by who has ancestry that evolved for long periods around the Mediterranean. How else should it be determined. Sorry but CHG or Neolithic Iranian is not Mediterranean, it evolved in isolation around the Zagros mountain range and the Caucasus. It entee


    understand the difference and I know far better than you anything you think you know (including the definitions of agnostic and championing). Look, there's nothing to consider here. The Kurgan theory is a scientific fact, not a hypothesis, and all the other bullshit hypotheses have no case, because they don't click with the linguistic evidence. It's that simple. If you don't understand that, well, you can go on and on about irrelevant genetic components.
    Well I'm comfortable with my uncertainty. JP Mallory who has been studying the question for decades is too. So I think I'm in good company. We don't need Mr. Elias to dogmatically assert what we are supposed to believe. Thanks though.




    ^ Exactly. I rest my case. This is probably the most important argument as to why you suffer from a huge racial inferiority complex; oh I'm so secure and self-confident because I cluster among Swiss people!!!!![/i] What self-confident man in his right mind talks like this? My self-esteem comes from my genetic position among the Swiss, that makes me almost Germanic, which means I'm almost human! What a fucking faggot. A real insecure faggot.
    Well hell yeah I think it's better to be genetically like the Swiss than Turko-Syrian or whatever you are and cluster. Sue me. I believe our President Mr Trump had a word or 2 to describe countries filled with people only like you in it. Shit Holes. Of course you know that too which is why u live in Sweden.


    And by the way, if we ever met in the ring in an MMA fight or something like that, I'd fuck you up fo' real. After that, you'd really feel inferior What next, are you going to brag about how tall you are and therefore self-confident? By your own insecure rationale, anyone who's 1 cm taller than you, and clusters slightly closer to Germans and Scandinavians than you do, must be more secure than you are.

    Just admit it, you're a faggot. You've obviously never had any real self-confidence to begin with. And by the way, mixed people are more often insecure and suffer from identity crises and so on
    Uhh Ohh we have a keyboard warrior here..a 5 foot 7 inch Keyboard Warrior at that. I better be afraid. Talk about complexes. We know you're a big tough guy Elias.0
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2018-08-10 at 23:45.

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    With my cup of coffee, I am thoroughly enjoying the butt-hurt Steppe theorists scrounging for there superficial fabrications (Maybe the mullahs bribed him..lol). But of course, N.W Iran has always been a prime candidate for IE given genetics, linguistics, and anthropology. Thank God for David Reich. He is far more consistent and neutral than Steppe theorists indulging in their archaic delusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    He just doesn't understand this topic; he's doesn't know what he's talking about, that's all. It's not more complicated than that.

    For the record, David Reich is a graduate of Harvard college, and a professor of genetics at the highly prestigious, Harvard Medical School. He has made notable contributions to his field, and has been investigating the history of populations for over two decades. His conclusion is not only elegant but bulletproof:

    "...the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in presend-day Iran or Armenia, because Ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians" ("Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past", 2018, p.120).



    Even worse for Steppe theorists, is that we have now the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (MPI-SHH) which also supports the South of Caucasus hypothesis as PIE homeland. Johannes Krause and Russell Gray are directors at the institute:

    "According to us, the best hypothesis is the one which brings together genetic and linguistic data. They [the Proto-Indo-Europeans] would have lived east of the fertile crescent about 8000 years ago ... We believe that the origin is here in the southern Caucasus, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and perhaps in northern Iran about 8,000 years ago"



    And of course, there is Hajji Firuz sample dated well before Yamana: A site known for having well preserved archaeological layers on the grave-side of the burial mound. It's important to note, the R1b-M269 sample, labeled I2327, was found in the 'sub'-grave 'K10', which lied buried neatly under well documented layers, with dated pottery. The grave lied in the same burial mound as graves 'F10' and 'F11', which were both C14 dated.






    That being said, there are astronomically odds that Reich, Johannes Krause and Russell Gray have all converged on the same incorrect hypothesis, by chance. Or worse, suiting their own pet-theories (especially given they have European backgrounds, and would seem, therefore to have no reason to prefer a homeland in Iran, Armenia, or Eastern Turkey). It's impossible to imagine that the the Max Plank institute and Reich lab would have any other interest than than preserving European history. They are not the proverbial Pole boy, indulging in their ethnocentric delusions and engaging in a futile hunt for glory.
    Last edited by jpz79; 2018-12-01 at 16:04.

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    I really think only the Anatolian hypothesis and Renfrew have been shut down by the last 5-7 years of Ancient DNA sequencing. The Anatolians had a massive demic expansion Northwest into Europe but this was not what brought Indo-European.

    The Armenian Highland hypothesis and Pontic-Caspian steppe hypothesis had huge boosts in support from Ancient DNA. I lean more toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe hypothesis, but the Armenian-Caucaus hypothesis could represent the initial spark that ignited the fire of PIE expansion, and the Kurgans just did most of the burning...but were not the spark.

    I really don't know what to think anymore regarding the PIE homeland. I really don't think it's a question that can be answered definititely with our limited methods of the present. Acheogenics can't trace languages with 100% certainty and linguistic paleontology is a rather crude and too soft a science for me to come to any confident conclusions.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2018-12-26 at 07:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Anything of worth as far as African studies in his book?
    No, not much. Just the part about ancestral AMH lineages perhaps going extinct in Africa around 1.8 million years ago, with their Eurasian cousins flourishing and returning sometime prior to 300k ya. He indicates parsimony actually favors this scenario which is not in opposition to anything that we currently know from archaeology and genetics. How's that for a pendulum swing?

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    Part I The Deep History of Our Species
    1 How the Genome Explains Who We Are
    2 Encounters with Neanderthals
    3 Ancient DNA Opens the Floodgates

    Part II How We Got to Where We Are Today
    4 Humanity’s Ghosts
    5 The Making of Modern Europe
    6 The Collision That Formed India
    7 In Search of Native American Ancestors
    8 The Genomic Origins of East Asians
    9 Rejoining Africa to the Human Story

    Part III The Disruptive Genome
    10 The Genomics of Inequality
    11 The Genomics of Race and Identity
    12 The Future of Ancient DNA

    One chapter of Reich's book, Rejoining Africa to the Human Story, is all about Africa. David co-authored Skoglund et al. (2017) and he briefly summarized the paper on the pre-Babtu population structure in East Africa in Chapter 9, arguing that the East African Foragers were genetically closer to Eurasians than to sub-Saharan Africans. He also mentioned the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages and the origins of the San people.


    We assembled genome-wide data from 16 prehistoric Africans. We show that the anciently divergent lineage that comprises the primary ancestry of the southern African San had a wider distribution in the past, contributing approximately two-thirds of the ancestry of Malawi hunter-gatherers ∼8,100–2,500 years ago and approximately one-third of the ancestry of Tanzanian hunter-gatherers ∼1,400 years ago. We document how the spread of farmers from western Africa involved complete replacement of local hunter-gatherers in some regions, and we track the spread of herders by showing that the population of a ∼3,100-year-old pastoralist from Tanzania contributed ancestry to people from northeastern to southern Africa, including a ∼1,200-year-old southern African pastoralist. The deepest diversifications of African lineages were complex, involving either repeated gene flow among geographically disparate groups or a lineage more deeply diverging than that of the San contributing more to some western African populations than to others. We finally leverage ancient genomes to document episodes of natural selection in southern African populations.

    This study, which multiplies by 16-fold the number of individuals with genome-wide ancient DNA data from sub-Saharan Africa, highlights the power of ancient African genomes to provide insights into prehistoric events that are difficult to discern based solely on analysis of present-day genomes. We reveal the presence of a hitherto unknown cline of geographically structured hunter-gatherer populations stretching from Ethiopia to South Africa, which we show existed prior to the great population transformations that occurred in the last few thousand years in association with the spread of herders and farmers. We also document deeper structure in western Africa, possibly predating the divergence of the ancestors of southern African hunter-gatherers from other population lineages. We finally provide case examples of how populations in eastern and southern Africa were transformed by the spread of food producers and show how the process gave rise to interactions with the previously established hunter-gatherers, with the outcomes ranging from no detectable mixture in present-day populations to substantial mixture. Our documentation of a radically different landscape of human populations before and after the spread of food producers highlights the difficulty of reconstructing the African past based solely on analysis of present-day populations and the importance of using ancient DNA to study deep African population history in an era in which technological improvements have now made this feasible. It is clear that ancient DNA studies with larger sample sizes and covering a broader chronological and geographic range have the potential to make major progress in improving our understanding of African prehistory.

    https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(17)31008-5
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 2019-03-10 at 23:09.

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