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Thread: How ancestrally "European" are European people?765 days old

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    Default How ancestrally "European" are European people?

    If all European ancestry is supposedly derived from the Middle East(which it is no doubt) when did Europeans cease to be Middle Eastern settlers and or a mix of Paleolithic Hunter Gatherers+ Middle Eastern immigrants to being "European" phylogenetically speaking?
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    Well technically about 10-20% of European ancestry is derived from Siberia (the so called ANE component). Indigenous European hunter-gatherers I guess also came from the Middle East originally, but that was a very long time ago. I'm eating Thai buffet right now so I can't give a proper answer, just wanted to point that out about ANE, but I'll give a more thorough answer later.

    How come you're wondering about this though?
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Well technically about 10-20% of European ancestry is derived from Siberia (the so called ANE component). Indigenous European hunter-gatherers I guess also came from the Middle East originally, but that was a very long time ago. I'm eating Thai buffet right now so I can't give a proper answer, just wanted to point that out about ANE, but I'll give a more thorough answer later.

    How come you're wondering about this though?
    I have my reasons which will become manifest soon.
    We Wuz Kerma Kangz delusion..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    You @beyoku @HabariTess @Roseai are the ones claiming people that have nothing to do with them.I'm a Cushitic descendant of the Sudan and an heir to all it's civilizations while you descend from Ebola stricken negroes from the Congo forest that eat albinos in order to gain superpowers lmao

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    Some regions are still predominantly Middle Eastern even by modern standards.

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    This is a heavy duty complicated topic. Some definitions are needed.

    Phylogeny: The evolutionary history of a group of organisms. (from dictionary.com)
    Phylogenetics is the study of the evolutionary history of individuals or groups of organisms.(species) These relationships are discovered through phylogenetic inference methods that evaluate observed heritable traits, such as DNA sequences, morphology under a model of evolution of these traits.
    The result of these analyses is a phylogeny, a diagrammatic hypothesis about the history of of the evolutionary relationships of a group of organisms. Phylogenetic analyses have become central to understanding biodiversity, evolution and genomes.
    Taxonomy is the classification, identification and naming of organisms. It is richly informed by phylogenetics, but remains a methodologically and logically distinct discipline.(from wikipedia.com)

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    The word "Europeans" is a broad term covering many nationalities. Europeans are very different today than they were 2000 years ago. They probably did not come from the Middle East. The ancient Roman and Greek historians describe them as a unique people untainted by intercourse with other peoples. In Tacitus words, "They were like none other but themselves".
    Where did these people come from? They evolved in a civilization called the Danube Valley Civilization. It was along the Danube river just northwest of the Black sea. They may have originally come from Greece or some adjacent area. There they underwent mutations causing evolutionary changes. A mutation in a single gene caused the blue eyes. Another mutation caused the pale skin and blond hair. They also grew much larger than the Mediterranean peoples. Their voice box changed for improved diction. The scientists who discovered these mutations say they were undergoing rapid evolutionary change. These changes occurred between 6000 and 10,000 BC. These changes were so dramatic that they would have to be classified as a seperate sub-species. There were 3 distinct groups, the Scythians, the Celtic peoples and the Germanic speaking peoples. The Scythians were probably the first to leave the Danube Valey and they moved east and lived north of the Black sea in the Pontic Steppe. The Celtics were next to leave and moved north along the Danube and finally into France where their numbers reached into the millions. The Germanic speaking peoples were last to leave and at first occupied northern Europe and southern Scandanavia. They displaced the other peoples living there. Tacitus and other Roman historians make no mention of other peoples. He just describes 25 small Germanic tribes or clans.
    I have a book by an archaeologist Malcolm Todd who describes a 3rd group of people in that area. But it appears that first the Celtic people and then the Germanic people killed them off.

    These Yamana people who are mentioned on this forum were either Scythians or people who came later. There is no mention of them by ancient historians. The Europeans today have only a distant resemblence of their ancient ancestors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Theory View Post
    If all European ancestry is supposedly derived from the Middle East(which it is no doubt) when did Europeans cease to be Middle Eastern settlers and or a mix of Paleolithic Hunter Gatherers+ Middle Eastern immigrants to being "European" phylogenetically speaking?
    With the massive invasion of the Indo-Europeans (Aryans) ca 3000 BCE:



    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html

    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    The word "Europeans" is a broad term covering many nationalities. Europeans are very different today than they were 2000 years ago.
    No. We're just about identical to the people of the central European Bell Beaker culture, dating to the late 3rd millennium BCE:



    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    These Yamana people who are mentioned on this forum were either Scythians or people who came later. There is no mention of them by ancient historians. The Europeans today have only a distant resemblence of their ancient ancestors.
    WTF? The Yamnaya people lived in the eneolithic. Of course there is no mention of them by classical era historians who lived over 2500 years later.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture
    Last edited by Cromagnorse; 2017-06-12 at 20:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Theory View Post
    If all European ancestry is supposedly derived from the Middle East(which it is no doubt) when did Europeans cease to be Middle Eastern settlers and or a mix of Paleolithic Hunter Gatherers+ Middle Eastern immigrants to being "European" phylogenetically speaking?
    By the latest phases of the Early Bronze Age, after the initial spread of Indo-European speakers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    The Germanic speaking peoples were last to leave and at first occupied northern Europe and southern Scandanavia. They displaced the other peoples living there. Tacitus and other Roman historians make no mention of other peoples. He just describes 25 small Germanic tribes or clans.
    I have a book by an archaeologist Malcolm Todd who describes a 3rd group of people in that area. But it appears that first the Celtic people and then the Germanic people killed them off.
    In 98 AD, Tacitus wrote about Fenni, thought of as having been proto-Sami and proto-Finns who had had the hunter-gatherer lifestyle somewhat akin to Tacitus description:
    "In wonderful savageness live the nation of the Fenni, and in beastly poverty, destitute of arms, of horses, and of homes; their food, the common herbs; their apparel, skins; their bed, the earth; their only hope in their arrows, which for want of iron they point with bones. Their common support they have from the chase, women as well as men; for with these the former wander up and down, and crave a portion of the prey. Nor other shelter have they even for their babes, against the violence of tempests and ravening beasts, than to cover them with the branches of trees twisted together; this a reception for the old men, and hither resort the young. Such a condition they judge more happy than the painful occupation of cultivating the ground, than the labour of rearing houses, than the agitations of hope and fear attending the defense of their own property or the seizing that of others. Secure against the designs of men, secure against the malignity of the Gods, they have accomplished a thing of infinite difficulty; that to them nothing remains even to be wished."

    http://theancientweb.com/explore/europe/finland/
    Last edited by Aila; 2017-06-12 at 23:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    The word "Europeans" is a broad term covering many nationalities. Europeans are very different today than they were 2000 years ago. They probably did not come from the Middle East.
    Of course they came from the Middle East. ALL the Greek mythological stories and accounts say that the Spartans, Danaans/Achaeans, Phoenicians, Ionians, Trojans (the main bulk of the Roman ancestors), and many other Greek ethnicites dispersed from the Middle East (specifically Egypt and Mesopotamia).

    The ancient Roman and Greek historians describe them as a unique people untainted by intercourse with other peoples
    The Romans (and particularly emperors like Julius Caesar and Hellenistic warriors like Alexander the Great) believed that they descended from the Trojans. The Greeks were not a unified ethnicity/race, rather a collection of various groups who came from the Middle East.

    Where did these people come from? They evolved in a civilization called the Danube Valley Civilization. It was along the Danube river just northwest of the Black sea. They may have originally come from Greece or some adjacent area. There they underwent mutations causing evolutionary changes. A mutation in a single gene caused the blue eyes. Another mutation caused the pale skin and blond hair. They also grew much larger than the Mediterranean peoples. Their voice box changed for improved diction. The scientists who discovered these mutations say they were undergoing rapid evolutionary change. These changes occurred between 6000 and 10,000 BC. These changes were so dramatic that they would have to be classified as a seperate sub-species.
    What a bunch of baloney and science fiction. The Scythians beyond the Danube, according to Herodotus, originally came from Persia/Medes:

    "As for the region which lies north of this country, none can tell with certainty what men dwell there, but what lies beyond the Ister [Danube] is a desolate and infinitely large tract of land. I can learn of no men dwelling beyond the Ister save certain that are called Sigynnae and wear Median dress. Their horses are said to be covered all over with shaggy hair five fingers' breadth long, and to be small, blunt-nosed, and unable to bear men on their backs, but very swift when yoked to chariots. It is for this reason that driving chariots is the usage of the country. These men's borders, it is said, reach almost as far as the Eneti on the Adriatic Sea. They call themselves colonists from Media. How this has come about I myself cannot understand, but all is possible in the long passage of time. However that may be, we know that the Ligyes who dwell inland of Massalia use the word “sigynnae” for hucksters, and the Cyprians use it for spears (Histories, 5:10)"

    This people later became known as Germans. Before they were known as Scythians they were, in Assyrian records, called Cimmerians.

    There were 3 distinct groups, the Scythians, the Celtic peoples and the Germanic speaking peoples. The Scythians were probably the first to leave the Danube Valey and they moved east and lived north of the Black sea in the Pontic Steppe. The Celtics were next to leave and moved north along the Danube and finally into France where their numbers reached into the millions. The Germanic speaking peoples were last to leave and at first occupied northern Europe and southern Scandanavia
    They weren't "distinct" and the historians more or less lumped them together many times. They didn't "originate" in the Danube Valley but they migrated there in several waves.

    They displaced the other peoples living there
    What people? If there were any large ammount of people living there before they came, historians and others would have mentioned this. There may have been small, small tribes of Celts and others living there before they arrived (the "Hallstatt culture" etc), but no large population by any means. there are no records of any large population living there pre-"Germanic takeover" because there were none. When the "Gauls" arrived in Northern Italy 5 centuries B.C., Livy called them a (paraphrasing) "strange race of new settlers":

    ..."The Gauls, a strange and unknown race, had recently overrun the greatest part of Etruria, and they were not on terms of either assured peace or open war with them. They would, however, do this much for those of their blood and name, considering the imminent danger of their kinsmen - if any of their younger men volunteered for the war they would not prevent their going. The report spread in Rome that a large number had reached Veii, and in the general alarm the internal dissensions, as usual, began to calm down" (History of Rome, 5:17)

    Tacitus and other Roman historians make no mention of other peoples. He just describes 25 small Germanic tribes or clans.
    I have a book by an archaeologist Malcolm Todd who describes a 3rd group of people in that area. But it appears that first the Celtic people and then the Germanic people killed them off.
    There were no other people there... That's why they didn't mention them.

    The Europeans today have only a distant resemblence of their ancient ancestors.
    That's just imaginary conjecture.
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