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Thread: "Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry"331 days old

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    Seems to me like there is only one piece left in completing this puzzle. The separation of East and Western Ancestral North Africans.

    Too bad they didn't include mummy genomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Seems to me like there is only one piece left in completing this puzzle. The separation of East and Western Ancestral North Africans.

    Too bad they didn't include mummy genomes.
    This sounds interesting.

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    The plot thickens
    'Ancestral North African' huh!?

    Something tells me that this 'Ancestral North African' is the genetic autosomal component that has been found at 30% of Niger-Congo/Kordofanian people.
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=48152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Hand View Post
    The plot thickens
    'Ancestral North African' huh!?

    Something tells me that this 'Ancestral North African' is the genetic autosomal component that has been found at 30% of Niger-Congo/Kordofanian people.
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=48152
    No offense and not to misinterpret you but weren't you stating that a good chunk of IAM ancestry was SSA before?


    I personally highly doubt ANA has anything to do with that 30% ancestry. If I remember correctly wasn't it just Basel African? But IF it is things would get interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Either way the "SSA" term needs to be thrown in the garbage can in this field after these recent studies muddying up the term.

    At this point its just a politically correct term for "Black."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    No offense and not to misinterpret you but weren't you stating that a good chunk of IAM ancestry was SSA before?


    I personally highly doubt ANA has anything to do with that 30% ancestry. If I remember correctly wasn't it just Basel African? But IF it is things would get interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Either way the "SSA" term needs to be thrown in the garbage can in this field after these recent studies muddying up the term.

    At this point its just a politically correct term for "Black."
    There are contexts when you need to distinguish between populations from different regions of Africa. I think something like "SSA" could be a useful catchall for African populations outside of the Sahara or Mediterranean basin. That said, I will admit to personally disliking the term "sub-Saharan" since it's so often used to demarcate African identity by implying that the "real" Africans are the ones living south of the Sahara whereas everyone who ever lived in North Africa was Middle Eastern or otherwise Eurasian. It's not even like SSA described a singular, monophyletic genetic clade to begin with.

    Human DNA sequences: more variation and less race.
    Interest in genetic diversity within and between human populations as a way to answer questions about race has intensified in light of recent advances in genome technology. The purpose of this article is to apply a method of generalized hierarchical modeling to two DNA data sets. The first data set consists of a small sample of individuals (n = 32 total, from eight populations) who have been fully resequenced for 63 loci that encode a total of 38,534 base pairs. The second data set consists of a large sample of individuals (n = 928 total, from 46 populations) who have been genotyped at 580 loci that encode short tandem repeats. The results are clear and somewhat surprising. We see that populations differ in the amount of diversity that they harbor. The pattern of DNA diversity is one of nested subsets, such that the diversity in non-Sub-Saharan African populations is essentially a subset of the diversity found in Sub-Saharan African populations. The actual pattern of DNA diversity creates some unsettling problems for using race as meaningful genetic categories. For example, the pattern of DNA diversity implies that some populations belong to more than one race (e.g., Europeans), whereas other populations do not belong to any race at all (e.g., Sub-Saharan Africans). As Frank Livingstone noted long ago, the Linnean classification system cannot accommodate this pattern because within the system a population cannot belong to more than one named group within a taxonomic level.
    Knowledge is consciousness of reality. Reality is the sum of the laws that govern nature and of the causes from which they flow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    There are contexts when you need to distinguish between populations from different regions of Africa. I think something like "SSA" could be a useful catchall for African populations outside of the Sahara or Mediterranean basin. That said, I will admit to personally disliking the term "sub-Saharan" since it's so often used to demarcate African identity by implying that the "real" Africans are the ones living south of the Sahara whereas everyone who ever lived in North Africa was Middle Eastern or otherwise Eurasian. It's not even like SSA described a singular, monophyletic genetic clade to begin with.

    Human DNA sequences: more variation and less race.
    IDK, when you think about it... SSA as a genetic term relating to aDNA might be more harmful that useful. racism, biases, and politics aside, it can cause confusion. If we look at populations outside of Africa with "SSA" affinities directly in-line with modern "SSA's" how are we to distinguish whether it was distributed from actual SSA or ANA. With ANA being one line of ancestry for modern SSA's how appropriate will it be to distinguish ANA from SSA, when you can't really have SSA without ANA.

    You see how messy this gets?

    The cognitively dissonant will cling to differentiating ANA and SSA to cope with the fact that Africans were so involved in Eurasian history. Which is where we get jokes such as Para-Eurasian. Keep in mind that we only have a very thin slice of the Ancient African diversity pie. We could have different sets of Africans have a different set of genes that cluster with Eurasians in a way different than Taforalt and IAM but are also ancestors of East Africans for example. Now what if this population was found below the Sahara? what will you call them??
    "SubSahran North Africans"? "Non-Subsharan, subsahrans"? "Unsubbed-sahrans"? "Not so North-North Africans"?
    Forum biodiversity is awesome!


    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Depends which prehistoric North Africa you mean. There's a preprint here saying that Neolithic North Africans (you know, the ones who replaced the hunter-gatherers there), were fully West Eurasian. Makes sense.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/21/191569

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    No offense and not to misinterpret you but weren't you stating that a good chunk of IAM ancestry was SSA before?
    I was going by what the genetic papers said. Remember IAM is part Eurasian. 'Ancestral North African' and 'IAM' are related but are quite different autosomally.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    I personally highly doubt ANA has anything to do with that 30% ancestry. If I remember correctly wasn't it just Basel African? But IF it is things would get interesting.
    They never had a better name than Basal African and hasn't been studied properly.
    I suppose we're going to have to wait for more aDNA papers and tests to see what's up.
    I'll happily take an 'L' if I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Either way the "SSA" term needs to be thrown in the garbage can in this field after these recent studies muddying up the term.

    At this point its just a politically correct term for "Black."
    Perhaps! Still going to use SSA though.
    Last edited by Iron Hand; 2018-09-23 at 18:31.

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    What is the relationship between the first Neolithic farmers in North Africa ie...IAM and Taforalt? Aren't they pretty similar?
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2018-09-23 at 18:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    IDK, when you think about it... SSA as a genetic term relating to aDNA might be more harmful that useful. racism, biases, and politics aside, it can cause confusion. If we look at populations outside of Africa with "SSA" affinities directly in-line with modern "SSA's" how are we to distinguish whether it was distributed from actual SSA or ANA. With ANA being one line of ancestry for modern SSA's how appropriate will it be to distinguish ANA from SSA, when you can't really have SSA without ANA.

    You see how messy this gets?

    The cognitively dissonant will cling to differentiating ANA and SSA to cope with the fact that Africans were so involved in Eurasian history. Which is where we get jokes such as Para-Eurasian. Keep in mind that we only have a very thin slice of the Ancient African diversity pie. We could have different sets of Africans have a different set of genes that cluster with Eurasians in a way different than Taforalt and IAM but are also ancestors of East Africans for example. Now what if this population was found below the Sahara? what will you call them??
    "SubSahran North Africans"? "Non-Subsharan, subsahrans"? "Unsubbed-sahrans"? "Not so North-North Africans"?
    ANA is also a line in.present West Eurasians. Anyway.Natufians if they are 27% Taforalt then they'd have to be 12% ANA or something to that degree. And those New Kingdom-Roman era Egyptian genomes were 50% Natufian like. So they draw less than 10% of their ancestry from ANA and they're mostly West or Basal Eurasian. IMO the old kingdom Egyptians will be more Natfian like and less Iranian Neolithic like but they'll still be over 80% Eurasian.

    I also question how close ANA is to sub-saharans since Natufians via Lazaridis 2016 weren't shown to be any closer to Sub Saharan Africans than a Mesolithic Eastern European forgers from Finland and Russia in the Karelia region.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2018-09-24 at 17:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    ANA is also a line in.present West Eurasians. Anyway.Natufians if they are 27% Taforalt then they'd have to be 12% ANA or something to that degree. And those New Kingdom-Roman era Egyptian genomes were 50% Natufian like. So they draw less than 10% of their ancestry from ANA and they're mostly West or Basal Eurasian. IMO the old kingdom Egyptians will be more Natfian like and less Iranian Neolithic like but they'll still be over 80% Eurasian.

    I also question how close ANA is to sub-saharans since Natufians via Lazaridis 2016 weren't shown to be any closer to Sub Saharan Africans than a Mesolithic Eastern European forgers from Finland and Russia in the Karelia region.
    I think you are thinking small. I think you need to step back and look at things. Look at a map.
    Think of this sample from Dzudzuana Georgia ....its genetic history. See it as a coordinate in the small triangle that includes the Levant and Iran Hotu...... and look at all the different ancient genetic samples and that came from this SMALL triangular region.

    Now when you zoom out...why would one conclude the native genetic diversity stretching from Mauritania to Egypt is all going to be "one thing"? Mark my words. North African native ancestry is not simply Taforalt. There will be Eastern and Western native substratums...possibly more. There is still African ancestry being absorbed in Natufian and or DzuDzuana. The relations between Taf and Yoruba in the sharing of an older North African ancestor will have an Eastern Saharan equivalent......with Sub Saharan East African sharing an older North African ancestors that is not Taforalt/ANA and is still being absorbed in Natufian. Therefore IMO, the ratio of Natufian > Taf > ANA that you are using is going to be different in Eastern and Western African populations.

    I find it almost troubling that with all the ancient DNA coming our of Eurasia you guys can't use some of these hints to see what is going to happen with Africa. Its like yall really haven't been paying attention and have no clue.

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