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Thread: Carlos Manuel Piar & Pedro Luis Brion9 days old

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    Default Carlos Manuel Piar & Pedro Luis Brion

    I learned yesteeday more about my heroes (and also one the national heroes of the Dutch Caribbean) Carlos Manuel Piar and Pedro Luis Brion.

    Both of them two were born and raised in Curaçao and were high ranking military officers in the army of Simon Bolivar and they helped Venezuela and other countries against the Spanish in the Independence war.

    I always thought, despite both of them being anti-racism, anti-slavery, anti-colonialism, Why the hell did they helped those people but not their own folk? They could done this:

    Start a revolution in Curaçao, they already had very good contact and support from Simon Bolivar and other military leaders/officers, and they had contact with Alexandre Petion from the Haiti revolution.

    Don't forget that they could raise support from the (altough rapidly diminishing) African slave population, Free Blacks, Mulattos, Amerindians, Catholic whites and even some protestant folks. The White population was divided amongst those who were loyal to France (France had taken over the Netherlands back then) and those who were loyal to the Dutch. With that they could spread it to Aruba and Bonaire with the same results.

    Perhaps there were many reasons why they couldnt, I only know that they were not allowed to return to Curaçao as a military officer, only as a civilian. Both of them were hated by the Dutch Protestant elite because they were:

    1. Anti-colonialists
    2. Anti-slavery
    3. Anti-Racist
    4. Catholic.
    5. Both of them had revolutionary ideals, and the Dutch elite were still frightened about what happened in August 1795, a revolution started by Tula, Louis Mercier, Pedro Wacao, Sebastián Carpata.

    Fun fact: Both of them were white, Manuel Piar was the son of a Curaçaon guy of Spanish-Canaria-Italian descent, and of Curaçaon woman of Afro-Venezuelan (father) and Dutch descent (mother). Technically, he was a quadroon but he was predominantly of European ancestry.

    Luis Brion, both of his parents were Curaçaons of Dutch/Flemish descent. People from what is now today Belgium also immigrated to the islands
    "Los blancos, morenos, cobrizos, cruzados, marchando serenos, unidos y osados, la Patria salvemos de viles tiranos, y al mundo mostremos que somos hermanos. "Juan Pablo Duarte

    My blog: http://dutchcaribbeanroots.blogspot.com/?m=1

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    Anybody here with some knowledge regarding revolutions in the Caribbean & Latin America in the 1800s? Simon Bolivar?
    "Los blancos, morenos, cobrizos, cruzados, marchando serenos, unidos y osados, la Patria salvemos de viles tiranos, y al mundo mostremos que somos hermanos. "Juan Pablo Duarte

    My blog: http://dutchcaribbeanroots.blogspot.com/?m=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaquille View Post
    Anybody here with some knowledge regarding revolutions in the Caribbean & Latin America in the 1800s? Simon Bolivar?
    I do, and think that the nature of the republican/democratic governments in this region made partition to be inevitable. Brazil barely avoided it by the sheer strenght of the imperial army and the relative popularity of both emperors as it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Andullero View Post
    I do, and think that the nature of the republican/democratic governments in this region made partition to be inevitable. Brazil barely avoided it by the sheer strenght of the imperial army and the relative popularity of both emperors as it was.
    Ah yes, and you do know who Manuel Piar and Luis Brion were, no? I find it odd that they helped a revolution in another country, but not their own. See my original post. They could have done it since they had much support. But why didnt they?
    @KingKhalasi this is good information for you, learn your history
    "Los blancos, morenos, cobrizos, cruzados, marchando serenos, unidos y osados, la Patria salvemos de viles tiranos, y al mundo mostremos que somos hermanos. "Juan Pablo Duarte

    My blog: http://dutchcaribbeanroots.blogspot.com/?m=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaquille View Post
    Ah yes, and you do know who Manuel Piar and Luis Brion were, no? I find it odd that they helped a revolution in another country, but not their own. See my original post. They could have done it since they had much support. But why didnt they?
    @KingKhalasi this is good information for you, learn your history
    I think it is because Latin American independence was mostly a British/Yankee project against Iberian and French ventures, and as such, making an attempt against Dutch colonial ventures didn't fall into that sphere. Furthermore, the racial characteristics of the Dutch colonies as plantation ventures (meaning, the enslaved population surpassed in number the free one) would have implied that the independence project there would have taken the race war/conflagration setting that the Haitian process took. I'm sure Bolívar and Santander weren't the only independence activists that were afraid of that kind of scenario among the movement (despite their hypocritically accepting Haitian aid from Petion and Christophe's regimes).
    Last edited by El Andullero; 2018-11-15 at 17:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaquille View Post
    Ah yes, and you do know who Manuel Piar and Luis Brion were, no? I find it odd that they helped a revolution in another country, but not their own. See my original post. They could have done it since they had much support. But why didnt they?
    @KingKhalasi this is good information for you, learn your history
    xD si swaa hahaha i seriously need to learn more about my home islands history haha
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    ^ (near eastern = ethiopian + european)

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    Shaquille, the other question to ask is how widespread was the pro independence sentiment among those colonies, cuz as far as I have studied the matter, most Caribbean colonies were loyalist inclined, no matter the metrópolis that held them. The Haitian/Dominican case is by itself an anomaly in a mostly pro-colonialist archipielago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Andullero View Post
    I think it is because Latin American independence was mostly a British/Yankee project against Iberian and French ventures, and as such, making an attempt against Dutch colonial ventures didn't fall into that sphere. Furthermore, the racial characteristics of the Dutch colonies as plantation ventures (meaning, the enslaved population surpassed in number the free one) would have implied that the independence project there would have taken the race war/conflagration setting that the Haitian process took. I'm sure Bolívar and Santander weren't the only independence activists that were afraid of that kind of scenario among the movement (despite their hypocritically accepting Haitian aid from Petion and Christophe's regimes).
    The enslaved population was already rapidly descreasing in the late 1700s, in early 1800s enslaved people were not the majority in the Dutch Caribbean due to manumission and maroons fleeing to Northern Venezuela, however Suriname they still were the majority. The Dutch were different than the rest of the slave holders from other european ethnicities in some cases. No offense, but people always try to portray the Dutch Caribbean as the same like any other island but its not.

    And also, we didnt have much plantations either. Only Suriname had alot of plantations and Curacao only had a few, where as in Aruba they didnt had any neither did Bonaire, Saba, and I think even Sint Maarten and Sint Eustatius.

    Shaquille, the other question to ask is how widespread was the pro independence sentiment among those colonies, cuz as far as I have studied the matter, most Caribbean colonies were loyalist inclined, no matter the metrópolis that held them. The Haitian/Dominican case is by itself an anomaly in a mostly pro-colonialist archipielago.


    The political situation in the Dutch Caribbean was pretty much complicated, and not everybody in the Dutch Caribbean were loyal to the Dutch. But you are right, most Caribbean colonies were loyalist and I alaways figured that Bolivar was a hypocrite, the way he treated my countrymen Manuel Piar

    I am very busy with my studies right now so I cant give you more answers, but I will definetly come back to discuss this further.

    @KingKhalasi Why is your Meta-ethncity 50% french and 50% fulani?
    Last edited by Shaquille; Yesterday at 12:32.
    "Los blancos, morenos, cobrizos, cruzados, marchando serenos, unidos y osados, la Patria salvemos de viles tiranos, y al mundo mostremos que somos hermanos. "Juan Pablo Duarte

    My blog: http://dutchcaribbeanroots.blogspot.com/?m=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaquille View Post
    The enslaved population was already rapidly descreasing in the late 1700s, in early 1800s enslaved people were not the majority in the Dutch Caribbean due to manumission and maroons fleeing to Northern Venezuela, however Suriname they still were the majority. The Dutch were different than the rest of the slave holders from other european ethnicities in some cases. No offense, but people always try to portray the Dutch Caribbean as the same like any other island but its not.

    And also, we didnt have much plantations either. Only Suriname had alot of plantations and Curacao only had a few, where as in Aruba they didnt had any neither did Bonaire, Saba, and I think even Sint Maarten and Sint Eustatius.

    Shaquille, the other question to ask is how widespread was the pro independence sentiment among those colonies, cuz as far as I have studied the matter, most Caribbean colonies were loyalist inclined, no matter the metrópolis that held them. The Haitian/Dominican case is by itself an anomaly in a mostly pro-colonialist archipielago.


    The political situation in the Dutch Caribbean was pretty much complicated, and not everybody in the Dutch Caribbean were loyal to the Dutch. But you are right, most Caribbean colonies were loyalist and I alaways figured that Bolivar was a hypocrite, the way he treated my countrymen Manuel Piar

    I am very busy with my studies right now so I cant give you more answers, but I will definetly come back to discuss this further.

    @KingKhalasi Why is your Meta-ethncity 50% french and 50% fulani?
    i scored that on the ethiohelix K10 + french gedmatch calculator in my 2 pop approx i think, my third pop approx was like 50% french, 25% algeria, 25% yoruba or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhalasi View Post
    i scored that on the ethiohelix K10 + french gedmatch calculator in my 2 pop approx i think, my third pop approx was like 50% french, 25% algeria, 25% yoruba or something.
    You shouldn't put too much trust on those calculators, some told me that my euro ancestry was Spanish. Or that I was part yoruba or tingrinya etc.
    "Los blancos, morenos, cobrizos, cruzados, marchando serenos, unidos y osados, la Patria salvemos de viles tiranos, y al mundo mostremos que somos hermanos. "Juan Pablo Duarte

    My blog: http://dutchcaribbeanroots.blogspot.com/?m=1

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