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Thread: Did Europeans introduce metallurgy, wheeled vehicles and horses to China?256 days old

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by WitoldPilecki View Post
    The only idiot & feral barbarian here is you.
    Didn't call you feral, or a barbarian. I called the Franks barbarians, which they were by any stretch of the imagination (at the time of the invasion of Gaul). You actually interpreted this as an attack on, I guess, all northern Europeans and, by extension, you. It must be hard getting out of bed with a skin that thin. Put down the ethnic goggles. Sad!

    (also, another example of poor English. Must be ironic arguing for your people's high IQ when yours is significantly sub-average)

    You clearly can't have a civilized discussion, because you simply start having feral Chimp spasms.

    You behave like an African savage, they too are obnoxious, big mouths in general, just you have this extreme OCD issue, that they don't typically have.
    Imagine spending posts calling me a racist and then posting this.

    I've read before that Frankish had a language following in the Frankish empire which expanded well into France.
    Much like French in England, it was only ever spoken by the elite. Is England - and are all its achievements - med?

    Also, your written English is just so poor. Were you raised in Poland? That would turn it from 'unacceptably woeful' to 'actually not bad.'

    @Reason1234 :

    1) this is a small subset of my counter-argument, I take it this means you accept the rest
    2) I said wheels predate the chariot and were found in Europe (ie, Vinca); however, when you say 'Europe' you don't seem to realise the peoples in question were pre-IE ENF types.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Proto Afro-Asiatic word for wheel[does it exist]? Phonecians-linguistic connected to Afro-Asiatic language, were a sea fairing people, just where did they get the idea for the letter Tet?
    Faring* and it's difficult to even begin to unwrap the levels of bizarreness behind that final sentence
    Last edited by Longbowman; 2019-02-02 at 22:42.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Yeah this is a common error. A lot of people seem to think that because PIE apparently has a cognate for wheel this means the steppe or early PIE people invented the wheel and wheeled vehicles. Not necessarily, it just means they knew of it as used them. It's possible they invented it, but I think wheeled show up in Mesopotamia and even the Neolithic Denmark or something around the same time as on the steppe. So the truth is we have no clue who invented the things, that's a huge geographical stretch.

    The only true 'invention' that can absolutely be ascribed to the PIEs on the Pontic-Caspian steppe is the domestication of the horse.

    The later Andronovo-Sintasha people north of the Caspian did seem to invent the chariot, though. These people were actually more European/Western like than the earlier steppe peoples.
    There's evidence for a few things being pioneered by Steppes type people, for example domesticated Horses, domesticated Bactrian Camels, chariots, trousers, Horse archery, composite bows, mounted warfare, perhaps early tin mining, even cataphract (Heavy armor cavalry)
    pioneered wagon mobile homes, and they had early corral (pens)
    not to mention apparently Steppes people played a big role in domesticated Dogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Didn't call you feral, or a barbarian. I called the Franks barbarians, which they were by any stretch of the imagination (at the time of the invasion of Gaul). You actually interpreted this as an attack on, I guess, all northern Europeans and, by extension, you. It must be hard getting out of bed with a skin that thin. Put down the ethnic goggles. Sad!

    (also, another example of poor English. Must be ironic arguing for your people's high IQ when yours is significantly sub-average)



    Imagine spending posts calling me a racist and then posting this.



    Much like French in England, it was only ever spoken by the elite. Is England - and are all its achievements - med?

    Also, your written English is just so poor. Were you raised in Poland? That would turn it from 'unacceptably woeful' to 'actually not bad.'

    @Reason1234 :

    1) this is a small subset of my counter-argument, I take it this means you accept the rest
    2) I said wheels predate the chariot and were found in Europe (ie, Vinca); however, when you say 'Europe' you don't seem to realise the peoples in question were pre-IE ENF types.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Faring* and it's difficult to even begin to unwrap the levels of bizarreness behind that final sentence
    I'm thin skinned?

    In comment #11 I left no insults, and yet in comment #12 you clearly start insulting & Chimpin'

    I think it's clearly yourself who has the inferior intellect.

    You've argued things like Myopia is hardly genetic, or intelligence is hardly genetic.

    Things we have known for a long time are mostly genetic, like say over 10 years now.

    I'll admit I may have made a couple of mistakes here, like for example on Celts on inventing chain mail armor, which was for a very long time the leading theory, and maybe changed fairly recently.
    In fact, it's still debatable.
    Even so Ectruscans for example maybe pioneered early armor of a similar style, that doesn't mean they invented the notorious 4 - 1 European chain mail armor.

    But, you still seem to think things like Myopia, and intelligence are mostly environment, which clearly shows you don't understand science very well.

    You also tend to flit around, oh Israel isn't up to par in IQ because it's not purely Jewish / Ashkenazi then say absurd things like your somehow not a Jewish supremacist, and then all of a sudden say oh well it's all environment, there's no ethnic differences in Intelligence, but that Ashkenazi Jews & East Asians do have inherent IQ advantages.

    WTF?
    You also didn't even listen in the first place about the 110 Polish-American IQ, you keep ignoring it.

    As for my IQ, it's high, but high in spatial ability, and my memory & knowledge are superb.

    You're just all around unpleasant, dumb, biased, nitpicking, touchy, fussy, dirt-bag, and that's you at your best.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Metallurgy is like, 30,000 years old
    Um, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    I doubt they had to introduce it as a concept to China (read: they didn't; it likely developed independently there)
    Actually the evidence shows it's highly likely that it was introduced to China via the steppe and that it would be a highly unlikely that it originated independently in China at the same time as they were coming into contact with metal-using europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    the Chinese innovated heavily wrt metallurgy, inventing things like blast furnaces
    Blast furnaces in China are from the AD period, not the period we're discussing here. As well as metallurgy itself, other metalworking innovations also appear to have been introduced from the Steppe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Even if we accepted steppe people brought it to China, however, they'd still have been 'ripping off' an ENF development.
    Adopting a technology isn't 'ripping off'. And the steppe cultures also made some innovations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    most archaeologists believing that the Yangshao culture (which definitely had copper by about 5,500 years ago, preceding the Majiayao culture to which it was ancestral) developed it indigenously.
    Actually it seems that most archaeologists today think that it was introduced from the steppe.

    “Today scholars generally accept that metal use entered China as metallurgy was adopted in the steppe and into the arc [i.e. Northwest China] (Chernykh 1992; Linduff 2015; Mei 2009).”

    Rawson, J., China and the Steppe: Reception and Resistance, 2017.

    Majiayao was the first Chinese culture with metallurgy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Considering they didn't have the wheel (not even potter's wheels) which other copper-making cultures certainly did, it seems almost silly to suggest that the technology was introduced to them.
    The Afanasevo culture had horses but don’t seem to have had wheeled vehicles. Those arrived later. Solid-wheel wagons were introduced into western China (Xinjiang), but the main arrival of wheeled vehicles into central China appears to have occurred when chariots arrived from the steppe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Bronze was probably introduced to China via Indo-European intermediaries
    As was copper, and later iron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    a Afro-Asiatic (or other ENF-type group) invention
    The ENF weren’t afro-asiatic.
    Last edited by Reason1234; 2019-02-02 at 23:40.

  7. #25
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    Metallurgy is working metal. There's evidence simple metals have been worked for literally tens of thousands of years. But that was just a side-point. Yangshao unarguably had copper metallurgy. This really isn't up for debate, unless you want to quibble with dating methodology and the like. If you want to argue that PIE people introduced copper smelting to China then go ahead, but be aware that that's what you're arguing for, and as you know the dates become pretty hard to align.

    Metal does first appear in NW China nearer to the Tarim Basin than the present centre of population, but this is not anomalous as China's population centres during the Neolithic started in central China and gradually made their way upriver.

    I put 'ripping off' in quotation marks to demonstrate that it's not my worldview but rather, yours, as you jumped into a conversation (well. Conversation is a generous term) about the relative merits of various peoples and I assumed you were doing so in bad faith. If not, I apologise. However, let's not pretend steppe culture had anything like as guiding a hand in the development of metallurgy as the Chinese, unless you count introducing them to bronze (probably) to begin with. Which, again, is the act of an intermediary and not a revolutionnaire.

    ENF-type is what I said. Whether or not bronze was first created by an Afro-Asiatic people is neither here nor there. I suspect it wasn't looking at the distribution of ore deposits and the known diffusion of AA speakership.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WitoldPilecki View Post
    There's evidence for a few things being pioneered by Steppes type people, for example domesticated Horses, domesticated Bactrian Camels, chariots, trousers, Horse archery, composite bows, mounted warfare, perhaps early tin mining, even cataphract (Heavy armor cavalry)
    pioneered wagon mobile homes, and they had early corral (pens)
    not to mention apparently Steppes people played a big role in domesticated Dogs.
    Yeah thank God those Caucasus Hunter Gatherers with all that Basal Eurasian ancestry showed up on the steppe, prior to that the native Northern Hunter Gatherers weren't really doing much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    Um, no.



    Actually the evidence shows it's highly likely that it was introduced to China via the steppe and that it would be a highly unlikely that it originated independently in China at the same time as they were coming into contact with metal-using europeans.



    Blast furnaces in China are from the AD period, not the period we're discussing here. As well as metallurgy itself, other metalworking innovations also appear to have been introduced from the Steppe.



    Adopting a technology isn't 'ripping off'. And the steppe cultures also made some innovations.



    Actually it seems that most archaeologists today think that it was introduced from the steppe.

    “Today scholars generally accept that metal use entered China as metallurgy was adopted in the steppe and into the arc [i.e. Northwest China] (Chernykh 1992; Linduff 2015; Mei 2009).”

    Rawson, J., China and the Steppe: Reception and Resistance, 2017.

    Majiayao was the first Chinese culture with metallurgy.




    The Afanasevo culture had horses but don’t seem to have had wheeled vehicles. Those arrived later. Solid-wheel wagons were introduced into western China (Xinjiang), but the main arrival of wheeled vehicles into central China appears to have occurred when chariots arrived from the steppe.



    As was copper, and later iron.



    The ENF weren’t afro-asiatic.
    Why would he seem to think that metal smelting was 30,000 years old?

    Haha, wow Longbow got whipped.

    I usually wouldn't care, but this obnoxious simpleton has it coming to him.

    I'll admit I've made a few mistakes here, but this guy's a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WitoldPilecki View Post
    Why would he seem to think that metal smelting was 30,000 years old?

    Haha, wow Longbow got whipped.

    I usually wouldn't care, but this obnoxious simpleton has it coming to him.

    I'll admit I've made a few mistakes here, but this guy's a joke.
    Awkward moment for you:

    https://www.gold-eagle.com/article/history-gold

    Experts of fossil study have observed that bits of natural gold were found in Spanish caves used by the Paleolithic Man about 40,000 B.C.
    As stated, metallurgy is working metal, which we have been doing for rather a long time. Difficult to say when the first man found a bit of metal and played with it. More defined artifacts are known from smelly brown people in the southern Balkan Peninsula and the Middle East around 8,000 years ago but the overwhelming likelihood is that metallurgy has a longer and more complex history than that, as you don't go from nothing to neat metal axes overnight.

    TL;DR: Smelting is at least 8,000 years old and probably a bit older, but experimenting with natural metals, especially malleable ones, is much older.

    Don't make it so obvious I'm living in your skull rent-free, btw. It's what I want. Make it more interesting, and try to rethink your approach to this.
    Last edited by Longbowman; 2019-02-03 at 01:18.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    Awkward moment for you:

    https://www.gold-eagle.com/article/history-gold



    As stated, metallurgy is working metal, which we have been doing for rather a long time. Difficult to say when the first man found a bit of metal and played with it. More defined artifacts are known from smelly brown people in the southern Balkan Peninsula and the Middle East around 8,000 years ago but the overwhelming likelihood is that metallurgy has a longer and more complex history than that, as you don't go from nothing to neat metal axes overnight.

    TL;DR: Smelting is at least 8,000 years old and probably a bit older, but experimenting with natural metals, especially malleable ones, is much older.

    Don't make it so obvious I'm living in your skull rent-free, btw. It's what I want. Make it more interesting, and try to rethink your approach to this.
    So, now bits of natural gold is somehow relevant to metal smelting, how?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WitoldPilecki View Post
    So, now bits of natural gold is somehow relevant to metal smelting, how?
    It is relevant, in that a knowledge of the utility of metal clearly leads to an interest in exploring further developments in metallurgy, but your implication is that I suggested early uses of gold constituted smelting, which I didn't. OP did. OP incorrectly mixed up smelting and metallurgy in his OP (they are not synonymous) and I corrected him in a throwaway first line that had little to do with the rest of my paragraph. You jumped on it as a perceived error because you are desperately eager to humiliate me in some way, which is not something you have the capacity to do.
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