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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    Let me dumb it way down for the people in the back.
    Right now we have Mbuti, Khoi, and Hadza as ancient African population bases. See the image below.



    What are you going to do now that Ancient DNA gave us two other Ancient African source populations, one in West Africa (Ghost population) and the other in the Maghreb (ANA)?
    What are you going to do if and when Ancient DNA gives us more Ancient African source populations in the Central and Eastern Sahara?
    What kind of language are you going to use when ALL these populations are "BASAL" ....All of them split prior to Crown Eurasian and even "Basal Eurasian"? You still going to be talking about "SSA"?
    If so, what do you do when they kill the whole "Sub Saharan" genetic label by proving ALL these components originate above the Sahara (Does that mean SSA is simply Basal) and migrated south with ANA simply being the latest one?
    I think you should simply take in account TIME for using this term : We should use "SSA" for modern sub-saharan africans and for their neolithic ancestors and for ancient populations that share the same features than modern sub-saharan africans...nothing really difficult to understand here Or if you really have a problem with it then you should only see "ssa" firstly as a geographical term

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    Actually it is an extension of eurasia simply because of her genetic and socio-historical situation and here you're making a mistake north africa is not just a desert the green sahara only existed during 4 thousands years and i can say the same about caucasoid proto-berbers going south ...now let's talk a bit about history if there were a lot of black people in NA as you imply I don't think ancient writers would have said this :

    "Black people resided not in the Nile valley but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun."

    Xenpohanes (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8)

    "The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically."

    Arrian, Indica 6.9

    "Therefore, the Negro nations are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because Negroes have little that is essentially human and possess attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals"

    Ibn khaldun

    I mean Maybe more than 10millions of black slaves were brought in north africa do you really think that it hasn't had an impact on the local population ? And here i'm not talking specifically about the lebu tribe but how greek people called ancient berbers ( Λιβύη ) :

    A Libyan and a Nubian on king Tutankhamun’s staff.

    Punic people never distinguished themselves from europoid North Africans that's completely false and it's even funny because this "punics" in the maghreb were probably more berber than levantines and the term "barbaroi" was not only used for north africans but for all the other non-greek people and it had nothing to do with skin color or race but was simply a term used to described sounds incomprehensible to Ancient Greeks and spoken by foreigners. So don't try to blackwash north africa because if you want to begin a debate about this trust me you will immediately fail
    Don't even try it.
    I do not entertain Africentrism if it's not constructive. However, since Eurocentrism is much older, I have complete zero tolerance for that even more so.

    NA is not an extension of Eurasia, & during the time of those Mediterranean Writers, civilization was just as multilayered and racist as the modern world. The blacks that lived around MENA had strong disagreements with their white counterparts so don't even fix your keypad to try to ease in a fake white superiority.

    Here is a quote from the texts <Glory of the Black Race written by Al'Jahiz during the Second Century

    "The Zanj say: Black delights the eye. When the eyes hurt a common prescription is sitting in the dark with a rag over the eyes. Good eyesight is the most precious thing for a person. They say : The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin… the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores."


    Quote from the Song of Roland (physical description of the Saracens)

    "When Roland saw the abhorred race, Than blackest ink more black in face, Who have nothing white but the teeth alone, "Now," he said, "it is truly shown, That the hour of our death is close at hand. Fight, my Franks, 'tis my last command." Said Olivier, "Shame is the laggard's due," And at his word they engage anew."


    _______

    Lastly, I'm not making this thread into a topic solely based on Egypt, however if we're going to show significant differences between a Nubian versus a Europoid North African, let's not be biased & go ahead & show Tutankhamun's bust portrayal with rich brown skin & clear Aboriginal African features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Flower View Post
    Don't even try it.
    I do not entertain Africentrism if it's not constructive. However, since Eurocentrism is much older, I have complete zero tolerance for that even more so.

    NA is not an extension of Eurasia, & during the time of those Mediterranean Writers, civilization was just as multilayered and racist as the modern world. The blacks that lived around MENA had strong disagreements with their white counterparts so don't even fix your keypad to try to ease in a fake white superiority.

    Here is a quote from the texts <Glory of the Black Race written by Al'Jahiz during the Second Century

    "The Zanj say: Black delights the eye. When the eyes hurt a common prescription is sitting in the dark with a rag over the eyes. Good eyesight is the most precious thing for a person. They say : The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin… the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores."


    Quote from the Song of Roland (physical description of the Saracens)

    "When Roland saw the abhorred race, Than blackest ink more black in face, Who have nothing white but the teeth alone, "Now," he said, "it is truly shown, That the hour of our death is close at hand. Fight, my Franks, 'tis my last command." Said Olivier, "Shame is the laggard's due," And at his word they engage anew."


    _______

    Lastly, I'm not making this thread into a topic solely based on Egypt, however if we're going to show significant differences between a Nubian versus a Europoid North African, let's not be biased & go ahead & show Tutankhamun's bust portrayal with rich brown skin & clear Aboriginal African features.
    hahahahahh holy sh*t i swear this is a sickness what you're doing here is called black supremacism and you're trying to use the "eurocentrist" excuse to spread your lies I'm not even european and i'm against all form of extremism I'm fighting against eurocentrism and afrocentrism that's it so your strategy here won't work on me. And during this classical time ancient writers were not racists like what we know today as "racism" this is for example what Stephanus of Byzantium said about them : " Ethiopia was the first established country on earth; and the ethiopians were the first to set up the worship of the gods and to establish laws " black people are even mentionned in the greek mythology so stop with your anachronisms. And are you serious about Al jahiz ? he's himself a descendant of zanj ...nothing really objective here and to remind you how zanj were seen and treated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj I will not even talked about the millions of black slaves in north africa it's kinda weird that these so called black north africans were racist and enslaved millions of their own race .

    Now you want to play the game about depictions of saracens, moors and ancient north africans let's go but before you should know that saracens were portrayed in black because it was a way to belittle them and to show that they were " evil" : let's begin with our friend king tut here a reconstruction of him based on his mummy


    and here some egyptians :



    Ramses II fighting nubians:


    now let's take a look at ancient berbers :
    moors







    here Terence a famous roman playwright of berber origin :


    A libyan chief represented by egyptians :


    statues representing berber people :






    Leo africanus :


    @beyoku why don't you tell your afrocentrist friend here that we were not black as I said before you clearly have an agenda too
    Last edited by NassBean; 2019-03-06 at 01:53.

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    ^ Here is what is going on. You are a out 15 years late to the party. The ideas you hold are outdated by about 10-15 years. Not viewing North Africans in their ancient context is about as smart as seeing American Whites and Blacks as simply "Americans"....with no regard for the colonial aspect of how they arrived in the western hemisphere.

    If you want to see North Africa in that narrow landscape because it helps you feel better and more align with your Eurasian ancestors then just say so.

    For what its worth I have a hard time understanding how North Africans and Eurclowns while arguing against north African "Blackness" and afrocentricity will sit and post a montage of White Berbers......but in that same collage show an image of some Brown Skinned Egyptians at war with a group of Nubians, half of which are the same color as Egyptians. What are you trying to prove because you surely aren't doing yourself any favors and would be hard pressed to find modern North Africans and Nubians who equate to that ancient art and are not populations who you yourself dont consider as black.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    ^ Here is what is going on. You are a out 15 years late to the party. The ideas you hold are outdated by about 10-15 years. Not viewing North Africans in their ancient context is about as smart as seeing American Whites and Blacks as simply "Americans"....with no regard for the colonial aspect of how they arrived in the western hemisphere.

    If you want to see North Africa in that narrow landscape because it helps you feel better and more align with your Eurasian ancestors then just say so.

    For what its worth I have a hard time understanding how North Africans and Eurclowns while arguing against north African "Blackness" and afrocentricity will sit and post a montage of White Berbers......but in that same collage show an image of some Brown Skinned Egyptians at war with a group of Nubians, half of which are the same color as Egyptians. What are you trying to prove because you surely aren't doing yourself any favors and would be hard pressed to find modern North Africans and Nubians who equate to that ancient art and are not populations who you yourself dont consider as black.
    hahahahah I exposed you i was right since the begining you're also a fuck**g afrocentrist and your comparison with America is completely ridiculous i'm not talking about 400 years but about periods of thousands of year so don't find excuses to put a black man everywhere you can. " it helps you feel better and more align with your Eurasian ancestors then just say so. " it seems that it really bothers you but I already know why : you just want to create links between the SSA world and north africa so you can say " Hey we play a role too in north africa's history" and " we are all the same africans ! " There are not "white berbers" but only berbers the one who are dark af are mixed that's why they all live in the southernmost regions but are you going to deny the Trans-saharan slave trade ?? do you really think that millions of blacks can't have a genetic impact on the population ? they were more numerous than all the arabs and europeans combined who came in north africa ....About egypt now the people who have the same skin color as ramses were nubians from the land of wawat and the black one from the land of kush

    modern nubians :

    I don't consider them "black" they have caucasoid features it's obvious

    Modern upper egyptians who live near the nubian border :

    You see there is almost no difference

    Black nubians :

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    ^ 3 of those groups are "Black" under the Western definition of "Black"....in fact they are all blacker than me.
    Now let me break down the FLAW in your thinking.

    I am not trying to put "Black People" everywhere.
    What I am trying to do is inform the uninformed.
    We can argue Humans originate in Sub Saharan Africa based on Ancient remains.
    We now have NEW data showing our earliest human ancestors may originate in North Africa based on Ancient remains.
    We now have data showing many of the major lineages below the Sahara are QUITE RECENT migrants to the south when it comes to their evolutionary history. They are not as "Sub Saharan African" as we think.

    So if there is a population in the Sahel or SSA that has haplogroups A3b2, M78 and V38......when speaking of there recent history i dont necessarily see them as carrying a combination of SSA (A3b,V38) and NA (M78) lineages. I see them as carrying 3 North African lineages that spread south in Secession with M78 simply being the last one to migrate south. That is not placing "Black People" in North Africa. What i am doing is showing how the labels are insufficient in describing the full nature of these lineages in question. Its a paradigm shift. It similar to understanding how "Black Skin" and "Black People" doesn't describe the full and accurate nature of Ancient Europeans that have ancestral Skin alleles.

    Moving from Y dna to Autosomal DNA, The same applies. The geographic stratification could be recent. You are not looking at an SSA/NA dichotomy but rather a Basal vs non-Basal one. With BOTH coming from the same damn place! ANA is Basal. When it comes to genetics and the way you are using "Sub Saharan" ...Ancestral North African (ANA) is Sub Saharan too. Now when you reply and say "its not because it originates in North Africa" .....I reply and say "They ALL originate in North Africa!"

    This is the point I am trying to make. If you are going to discuss race then discuss race. If you are going to talk about DNA then leave race out of it. The Important Part for you being a North African: What you are left with is Basal Ancestry in geographic NA and SSA. Some of the Basal Ancestry that exists in Geographic SSA comes FROM NA...possibly all of it. The autochthonous ancestry of North West Africa revealed in the Taforalt and Dzudzuana papers is Basal. When you ONLY want to talk about your "Neolithic ancestors" then you DISCARD the autochthonous ancestry of North West Africa that you STILL carry. You are doing a disservice to your own ancestors. When we get more Ancient DNA from North Africa and like Aterian and shit, and they start coming out as 100% Basal it will not matter how these populations look physically. A pure ANA contributing 40% Ancestry into Yoruba is still leaving Yoruba as 100% Basal!

    This is why I brought up the Dunning Kruger effect. You dont even know what need to know to know why what you are arguing is futile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    ^ 3 of those groups are "Black" under the Western definition of "Black"....in fact they are all blacker than me.
    Now let me break down the FLAW in your thinking.

    I am not trying to put "Black People" everywhere.
    What I am trying to do is inform the uninformed.
    We can argue Humans originate in Sub Saharan Africa based on Ancient remains.
    We now have NEW data showing our earliest human ancestors may originate in North Africa based on Ancient remains.
    We now have data showing many of the major lineages below the Sahara are QUITE RECENT migrants to the south when it comes to their evolutionary history. They are not as "Sub Saharan African" as we think.

    So if there is a population in the Sahel or SSA that has haplogroups A3b2, M78 and V38......when speaking of there recent history i dont necessarily see them as carrying a combination of SSA (A3b,V38) and NA (M78) lineages. I see them as carrying 3 North African lineages that spread south in Secession with M78 simply being the last one to migrate south. That is not placing "Black People" in North Africa. What i am doing is showing how the labels are insufficient in describing the full nature of these lineages in question. Its a paradigm shift. It similar to understanding how "Black Skin" and "Black People" doesn't describe the full and accurate nature of Ancient Europeans that have ancestral Skin alleles.

    Moving from Y dna to Autosomal DNA, The same applies. The geographic stratification could be recent. You are not looking at an SSA/NA dichotomy but rather a Basal vs non-Basal one. With BOTH coming from the same damn place! ANA is Basal. When it comes to genetics and the way you are using "Sub Saharan" ...Ancestral North African (ANA) is Sub Saharan too. Now when you reply and say "its not because it originates in North Africa" .....I reply and say "They ALL originate in North Africa!"

    This is the point I am trying to make. If you are going to discuss race then discuss race. If you are going to talk about DNA then leave race out of it. The Important Part for you being a North African: What you are left with is Basal Ancestry in geographic NA and SSA. Some of the Basal Ancestry that exists in Geographic SSA comes FROM NA...possibly all of it. The autochthonous ancestry of North West Africa revealed in the Taforalt and Dzudzuana papers is Basal. When you ONLY want to talk about your "Neolithic ancestors" then you DISCARD the autochthonous ancestry of North West Africa that you STILL carry. You are doing a disservice to your own ancestors. When we get more Ancient DNA from North Africa and like Aterian and shit, and they start coming out as 100% Basal it will not matter how these populations look physically. A pure ANA contributing 40% Ancestry into Yoruba is still leaving Yoruba as 100% Basal!

    This is why I brought up the Dunning Kruger effect. You dont even know what need to know to know why what you are arguing is futile.
    First of all these people are only seen as "black" in America not in europe nor the rest of the world and especially not in the eyes of modern anthropologists and they are blacker than you probably because you're mixed I grew up with west africans and central africans especially congolese people and they are far from being lighter than them let alone their negroid traits...the problem here is that you're only focusing on genetics but for me "SSA" should also contains culture and physical anthropology now with these 3 elements we can easily defined some ssa populations even if their ancestors were from north africa because the only place on earth where we find people like them is below the sahara. I mean even if these populations have ancestors in north africa they are still extremely different from indigenous north africans whether at the cultural, genetic and anthropological level

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    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    First of all these people are only seen as "black" in America not in europe nor the rest of the world and especially not in the eyes of modern anthropologists and they are blacker than you probably because you're mixed I grew up with west africans and central africans especially congolese people and they are far from being lighter than them let alone their negroid traits...the problem here is that you're only focusing on genetics but for me "SSA" should also contains culture and physical anthropology now with these 3 elements we can easily defined some ssa populations even if their ancestors were from north africa because the only place on earth where we find people like them is below the sahara. I mean even if these populations have ancestors in north africa they are still extremely different from indigenous north africans whether at the cultural, genetic and anthropological level
    I am focusing in on genetics because physical race doesn't matter. Case and point i post about "Negroid" looking Natufian and you respond with genetic data on how they have no SSA Ancestry. See how race in that context is useless?

    There was a study recently published with ancient DNA from a 7000 year old Southern Libyan. Is this your ancestor? And is this a Native North African? Why or why not? (Please answer this)
    Take a look at the genetic results. Tell me again how Race matters? DNA from this skeleton could be Strongly Basal or it could be Strongly non Basal and Natufian like. See how race only muddies the waters with this specimen?
    Last edited by beyoku; 2019-03-06 at 14:42.

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    Man stop being a hypocrite like that what you're doing here i will call it " anthro-relativism" you're exagerating i mean if we listen to what you're saying here then zwimbabweans are berbers LOL and for the natufian example i use a genetic study because the 3 elements should be "ssa" not only one if you know what i mean.
    Now about your study here i think i should remind you someting : "Torroni et al. 2006 state that Haplogroups M, N and R occurred somewhere between East Africa and the Persian Gulf." it's not even a sub-saharan haplogroup...and "The M and N haplogroups, which lie at the base of Eurasian mtDNA diversity, are today globally distributed outside Africa and are dated to around 50–65 ka, very close to the ancestral L3 clade. Their divergence from it is commonly considered to have occurred outside Africa or during the expansion1,2,21,22. The Arabian Peninsula represents a possible area where this occurred and a cradle from which the new branches spread toward Eurasia and back to Africa, including N1a and R0a, both of which are found in East Africa1,7,23,24."
    so no he's not my ancestor simply because he shares almost nothing in common with modern berbers and he's from a region far from mine...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    Black nubians :
    Those aren't nubians. Those are pure nilotes. Black nubians are very dark-skinned, darker skinned than the "mulatto" nubians you posted, but still USUALLY have an obvious west eurasian modification relative to nilotes



    ^It doesn't look it, as these people look very black, but more than likely, they carry some significant non-african admixture in their genome (in the neighborhood of 20%-30% minimum). It is rare for a black nubian not to display some non-african modification, and even then they generally look more darfurian/kordofanian, than they do nilotic (again, because both darfurians/kordofanians and phenotypically non-eurasian modified nubians still tend to carry some very minor level of eurasian admixture).

    I agree with you though, the average arabized northeast sudanese/nubian/beja is not black, and even the black looking ones are too physically distinct from most west africans/west-central africans and nilotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    ^ 3 of those groups are "Black" under the Western definition of "Black"....in fact they are all blacker than me.
    Now let me break down the FLAW in your thinking.
    Aren't you like upwards of 80% ssa?

    Also, who cares about the western definition of "blackness?" You guys got mind fucked by europeans into accepting just about any phenotype under the sea. You're literally playing into the very hands that wanted to ensure their own racial purity, by compromising your own.

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