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Thread: Batutsi/Bahima_Y-DNA&mt-DNA169 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    Good that you know what Museveni is. About Rwandans, I'm sorry, can't talk on their behalf. They know themselves better than I do. You're Congolese, right? I wonder why our government label us as Nilotes knowing we speak a Bantu language. And when you go to Uganda, Bahima are sometimes labelled Nilo-hamites , but speak a Bantu dialect. Funny!
    Yeah, from the East, so I'd say I'm pretty knowledgable in this area .

    I don't think the government labels Banyamulenge as Nilotes (No such a label in the government and I don't believe I'm wrong), but that label just comes from Congolese tribes interacting with Tutsis and knowing them (tbh, most people know fuck all about all this Bantu, Nilote shit, maybe the old generation, it was an old head that told me about Tutsi being Nilotes)

    Truth is, a lot of Africans don't put much focus on languages (or it's just Congolese people). I mean, Pygmies speak Bantu and Nilo-Saharan languages too but none of us will label them as such.

    Many Bahima have adapted the Lendu language, a Nilo-Saharan language, but the Nilo-Hamite label is most likely colonial, no one from that place uses that term.

    Tutsis are either Nilotes who have adapted Bantu language and customs
    Or
    Tutsis are a unique Bantu group who have been heavily mixed up. Put a Tutsi in a room full of EAs (Nilotes, Cushites, or Bantu) and I won't struggle picking one out. There's such a thing as a Tutsi phenotype...or maybe I'm just used to seeing them. Both Rwandan Hutus and Tutsis have "that look."

    I was seeing a Rwandan girl that I thought was a Tutsi but weeks later, she started talking about her being a Hutu (you can imagine the surprise). She looked more Tutsi than her Tutsi friend bruh, but later she told me that in Rwanda it's becoming more and more difficult to differentiate the two groups in terms of phenotype. But I wonder how true is that.
    Just reppin' 243...

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  3. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dude View Post
    Yeah, from the East, so I'd say I'm pretty knowledgable in this area .

    I don't think the government labels Banyamulenge as Nilotes (No such a label in the government and I don't believe I'm wrong), but that label just comes from Congolese tribes interacting with Tutsis and knowing them (tbh, most people know fuck all about all this Bantu, Nilote shit, maybe the old generation, it was an old head that told me about Tutsi being Nilotes)


    Truth is, a lot of Africans don't put much focus on languages (or it's just Congolese people). I mean, Pygmies speak Bantu and Nilo-Saharan languages too but none of us will label them as such.

    Many Bahima have adapted the Lendu language, a Nilo-Saharan language, but the Nilo-Hamite label is most likely colonial, no one from that place uses that term.


    Tutsis are either Nilotes who have adapted Bantu
    Or
    Tutsis are a unique Bantu group who have been heavily mixed up. Put a Tutsi in a room full of EAs (Nilotes, Cushites, or Bantu) and I won't struggle picking one out. There's such a thing as a Tutsi phenotype...or maybe I'm just used to seeing them. Both Rwandan Hutus and Tutsis have "that look."

    I was seeing a Rwandan girl that I thought was a Tutsi but weeks later, she started talking about her being a Hutu (you can imagine the surprise). She looked more Tutsi than her Tutsi friend bruh, but later she told me that in Rwanda it's becoming more and more difficult to differentiate the two groups in terms of phenotype. But I wonder how true is that.
    Right, like the Batwa of Rwanda, they are known as pygmie but speak a Bantu language.


    Correction, those are Bahema not Bahima. I did my high school in Uganda, and teacher would tell our Bahima classmate that they are not Bantu, that they are Nilo-hamites.n Once Razib is done working in the sample we gave him, some lights are gonna be shed on what we are. Well, if you go in books of geography and history, there is nothing that mention Banyamulenge. But when a teacher is giving lecture, and is talking about Nilotes, he points at us(Banyamulenge) as an example of a Nilote( As far as South Kivu is concerned). And, you are right, there is nothing official that says that, but government officials openly say it in public. Any mixed person can take the father's or mother's side of the family. And, that's the case in Rwanda. From the 60s, there has a been a lot of intermarriages in that country.
    Last edited by Espoir; 2019-05-08 at 04:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dude View Post
    Yeah, from the East, so I'd say I'm pretty knowledgable in this area .

    I don't think the government labels Banyamulenge as Nilotes (No such a label in the government and I don't believe I'm wrong), but that label just comes from Congolese tribes interacting with Tutsis and knowing them (tbh, most people know fuck all about all this Bantu, Nilote shit, maybe the old generation, it was an old head that told me about Tutsi being Nilotes)
    Technically, we are bantu because we speak a bantu language. All that nomenclature comes the languages different people speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dude View Post
    Truth is, a lot of Africans don't put much focus on languages (or it's just Congolese people). I mean, Pygmies speak Bantu and Nilo-Saharan languages too but none of us will label them as such.
    Correct them when you can I guess. The pygmies do tend to isolate themselves regardless of language spoken. Perhaps culturally the twa are similar to other SSA pygmies. Don't much really, I would like to educate myself on the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dude View Post
    Many Bahima have adapted the Lendu language, a Nilo-Saharan language, but the Nilo-Hamite label is most likely colonial, no one from that place uses that term.
    Agreed! Many of us still use biased colonial words and theories which likely have no basis. All their findings were based on morphology and phenotype. Kingdom and social organization more or less impressed them. So in their mind, it was only logical that a foreign race brought this civilization to the great lakes region which had no contact with the coast port cities until the 1800s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dude View Post
    Tutsis are either Nilotes who have adapted Bantu language and customs
    Or
    Tutsis are a unique Bantu group who have been heavily mixed up. Put a Tutsi in a room full of EAs (Nilotes, Cushites, or Bantu) and I won't struggle picking one out. There's such a thing as a Tutsi phenotype...or maybe I'm just used to seeing them. Both Rwandan Hutus and Tutsis have "that look."
    Most tutsis I have observed have 3 main regions on 23andme. Sudanese, Ethiopia&Erithrea and Southern East Africa (Majority for most 35-50%). So Based on autosomal and haplogroups, it looks like Tutsis are descendants all three (Nilotes, Cushites and Bantus). Hard to say definitively coz, some have really high sudanese up to 41% (This one individual from burundi) with low Ethiopia or vice versa with high ethiopia/low sudanese. So no one knows for sure unless deeper genetic testing is done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dude View Post
    I was seeing a Rwandan girl that I thought was a Tutsi but weeks later, she started talking about her being a Hutu (you can imagine the surprise). She looked more Tutsi than her Tutsi friend bruh, but later she told me that in Rwanda it's becoming more and more difficult to differentiate the two groups in terms of phenotype. But I wonder how true is that.
    Yessir! this happens all the time. This dna journey also has taught us that phenotype is slightly misleading. The most stereotypically looking tutsi doesn't necessarily score higher Non-east african bantu ancestry or vice versa. Will keep y'all posted as our sample grows
    Just curious, what does your dna ancestry look like, autosomal & haplos? Haven't seen one from an Eastern congolese.

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    How accurate is Myheritage at tracing Jewish roots? My cousin's results are down below.



    Mine are down below. Though I assume ethiopian Jewish is simply reference to my Ethiopian DNA match( which I have at about 35% according to 23andme).
    Last edited by Espoir; 2019-05-10 at 04:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    How accurate is Myheritage at tracing Jewish roots? My cousin's results are down below.



    Mine are down below. Though I assume ethiopian Jewish is simply reference to my Ethiopian DNA match( which I have at about 35% according to 23andme).
    All these ethnicity breakdowns are just for fun and I found myheritage to be the least accurate overall (with the exception of wegenes), nevermind Jewish specifically, and GEDmatch is highly amatuer in this specific regard too. You have to phase kits and triangulate and stuff to get real meaningful stuff. I found some academic tools that can pinpoint people's single ancestry accurately but not for very mixed people.

    I can't believe I wasted so many years taking the shit seriously because other clowns on these kinds of boards do. There are scientists that will tell you AncestryDNA, 23andME, MyHeritage etc... ethnicity breakdowns can't be taken seriously. It is poppycock.

    I had UCLA and Stanford university pinpoint me singly in the U.K in the southern UK one with a pc1 and pc2 plot and another on a map within a 400 kilometers accuracy. Then a Frenchman Tolan did some magic with Eurogenes K36 and collaborated that I was in the South UK within a similar kilometer distance but Tolan's tools are not part of GEDmatch and GEDmatch remains highly amateur.
    Last edited by DracoSentien; 2019-05-10 at 09:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ether View Post
    Any non-L maternal lineage in Africa is due to Eurasian back-migration. Furthermore, the autosomal profile of E-M35 men could have been heavily Eurasian influenced (due to U6/N1/M1 women likely - like the Iberomaurusian).
    Those women didnt travel alone, we know now thanks to ANA being genetically closer to eurasians and natufians not having any SSA ancestry that E-M35 is part of the eurasian derived genepool, and it could have originated outside africa or north africa, not that it makes much of a difference since MENA is basically an interconnected region with similar climate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KING OF KUSH View Post
    I noticed that many other Congolese do not like you people, the conflict in South Kivu province is supposedly all to be blamed on your ethnic group. The claim is that Banyamulenge are just Tutsi Rwandese refugees, political opportunists...Have you heard anything like this?
    Let me start by telling you that, we are a very small minority tribe in South Kivu. How can such a small community be the epicentre of all conflicts in South Kivu? Kivu has sooo many issues, but people always want to find one single reason why things are the way they are. Conflicts with neighboring tribes is one the Many problems facing the region. Number one problem is unemployment. Youths looking for quicker ways to get rich. That's taking our cows. Then, us protecting our cows. In That dilemma people dying, then revenge going back and forth. Unfortunately, no government intervention, people taking matters in their hands. Consequently, absolute chaos.

    South Kivu has been a battlefield since the 60s. There was this guy called Pierre Mulele, who rebelled against Mobutu. He was based in Fizi ( where I'm from) , even Desire Kabila joined him by then. That's when conflicts started in the South. What happened is, those people of Mulele started taking our cows, then, when we resisted, they attached our villages. We fought back, Mobutu's army had been greatly defeated by those rebels to the point that they kinda gave up. After we fought back, we defeated those rebels and when the regime saw that we can totally defeat the rebels, they supported us. The rebellion was neutralised (by Banyamulenge)in Fizi where they were based. That's when the hatred started~1964). Other tribes started seeing us as traitors who collaborated with the regime, while, we were merely defending our cattle as any Pastoral group does . Before they started eating our cows, we had no problem with neighboring tribes.

    Then, there came 1996. The Desire Kabila rebellion backed by Rwanda that ovethrew Mobutu. That's when they started using our name to define any Tutsi that was with Kabila. Which was abviously wrong. By then, we didn't have many educated people, anybody could use the name as an excuse of whatever he needed in Congo.
    The only rebellion that we were partially involved in was the AFDL one. But soon after it's creation, we withdrew because of it's motivation were not aligning with the interest of Congo. After that, the rest are, other be Congolese Tutsis or not that used our name as a clear pass to do whatever they wanted to do. It is so sad to see our name distorted to that extent when we are in the government and played an important role in defeating all tthose rebellion they named after us( I am to blame the media for that), which we had nothing to do with.

    Today, it's a ghost that is not going away, we are labeled Rwandans, I think, because we look like some of them. I don't understand why they do that, because, we are way closer to Burundi than we are to Rwanda if u look on the map and also same goes to Burundi, we look like some Burundians. The rest is the ideology that colonizers put in people of the great lakes region that the so called Tutsis are colonizers that invaded their land, when in fact we are seeing nothing that proves it genetically. Historically, there is no invasion of a Nilotic or Cushitic group in the region. Exception is , Babiito who were a Luo people that took over Bunyoro empire from Bachwezi (supposedly our ancestors). Interesting enough, there is also no account of a war that overthrew the Bachwezi. Legend say, they simply vanished and never to be seen. I dare anybody to prove me wrong.

    Good example is where Banyamulenge come from. We've been there to the least 250 years, some arrived in present day Congo ~400 y.a. Elders only account of chasing lions away from the area that had no autochthonous inhabitants. This was a great threat, because they were taking cows' and people's lives. Then, today we have neighboring tribes claiming it as their land, not because they were there before us, but because they have been corrupted by the idea that Bantus are autochthonous to Congo. This tells you what people in the region mean when they say Bantu. It's not a language classification. Rather it's a racial one( if I would say).

    These things are very complex, that's why it's not adviceable to someone not from there pretend as an expert just because he/she read some stuffs online.
    Last edited by Espoir; 2019-05-17 at 08:19.

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    @Gihanga_Rwanda @Lol_Race
    Is there any calculator can be best for differentiating our Nilotic (Dinka-like) and Bantu(Kongo-like) ancestry?
    How about the one that can differentiate different clusters of our West African ancestry? Seems like, there is one we got from a Nilosaharan group, the other one from a Bantu one. This is because, whenever I add a Nilotic group(Dinka or Anuak) in nMonte G-25 having Kongo(proxy for Bantu ancestry) Luxmanda(S. Cushites) Tz Pemba 1400b.p( East African hunter-gatherers); Kongo drops to 10%. Clearly, Nilotes are taking away some West African admixture we have. Our Cushitic-like admixture seems stable though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    @Gihanga_Rwanda @Lol_Race
    Is there any calculator can be best for differentiating our Nilotic (Dinka-like) and Bantu(Kongo-like) ancestry?
    How about the one that can differentiate different clusters of our West African ancestry? Seems like, there is one we got from a Nilosaharan group, the other one from a Bantu one. This is because, whenever I add a Nilotic group(Dinka or Anuak) in nMonte G-25 having Kongo(proxy for Bantu ancestry) Luxmanda(S. Cushites) Tz Pemba 1400b.p( East African hunter-gatherers); Kongo drops to 10%. Clearly, Nilotes are taking away some West African admixture we have. Our Cushitic-like admixture seems stable though.
    G25 nMonte is probably your best bet overall, but it doesn't seem plausible that you have so little Bantu ancestry. Your admixture estimates should improve when David adds more samples.

    In somewhat related news, this abstract reveals the Reich lab has obtained more East African ancient DNA, including some early pastoralists:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abstract
    Ancient DNA reveals a multi-step spread of food production into eastern Africa Food production spread into Eastern Africa beginning ~5000 years ago, transforming economic and social landscapes into a mosaic of foragers, herders, and later, farmers.

    Mary Prendergast, Elizabeth Sawchuck, Mark Lipson, Christine Ogola, Emmanuel Ndiema, Fredrick Kyalo Manthi, David Reich

    Complex exchanges among foragers and food producers have made it difficult to discern how these processes unfolded, and to determine the extent to which people moved with domestic animals and plants. In order to examine the genetic impacts of the spreads of herding and farming, we analysed genome-wide data from 41 individuals buried in association with Later Stone Age, Pastoral Neolithic (PN), and Iron Age contexts in what are now Kenya and Tanzania Our results support a multi-phase model in which admixture between northeastern African-related peoples and eastern African foragers formed multiple pastoralist groups, including a genetically homogeneous PN cluster. Additional admixture with northeastern and western African-related groups occurred by the Iron Age. These findings support several movements of food producers, while rejecting previous suggestions of minimal admixture with foragers and of genetic differentiation between makers of distinct PN artifactual traditions. Ancient DNA offers a new source of information about eastern African Holocene prehistory, and an important next direction is to integrate this information rigorously with insights provided by the longer-established disciplines of archaeology and linguistics.
    The Lowland Savanna Pastoral Neolithic is associated with the construction of monuments like the Lothagam North Pillar site (modern-day northern Kenya), which was built on egalitarian principles and dates to 5300 years ago. They would be ancestral to the pastoralists represented by Luxmanda, who reached Tanzania more than 3000 years ago. It's probably not a coincidence that YFull dates the M293 divergence to 5300 years ago.

    If/when these early pastoral groups turn out to be a better match for the Cushitic ancestry in Tutsis than Horners, it may become less controversial to admit that Tutsis are mostly descended from Cushites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    G25 nMonte is probably your best bet overall, but it doesn't seem plausible that you have so little Bantu ancestry. Your admixture estimates should improve when David adds more samples.

    In somewhat related news, this abstract reveals the Reich lab has obtained more East African ancient DNA, including some early pastoralists:


    The Lowland Savanna Pastoral Neolithic is associated with the construction of monuments like the Lothagam North Pillar site (modern-day northern Kenya), which was built on egalitarian principles and dates to 5300 years ago. They would be ancestral to the pastoralists represented by Luxmanda, who reached Tanzania more than 3000 years ago. It's probably not a coincidence that YFull dates the M293 divergence to 5300 years ago.

    If/when these early pastoral groups turn out to be a better match for the Cushitic ancestry in Tutsis than Horners, it may become less controversial to admit that Tutsis are mostly descended from Cushites.
    Awesome! Thank u! Can u plz share a link to that study?
    "If/when these early pastoral groups turn out to be a better match for the Cushitic ancestry in Tutsis than Horners, it may become less controversial to admit that Tutsis are mostly descended from Cushites."
    Yeah! I've seen it on the forum. It's Soo controversial even after shared these haplogroups. Which is so weird to me how people can still deny it with all these facts even more facts to come. Let's wait and see what Razib has to say in his extended analysis of our genome.

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