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Thread: Race of the Moors in Spain, Most were Borderline White men?89 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Yes the majority of Moors were European Muslim converts. This isn't surprising or anything new. Now look up the etymology of the term, the Berbers who were associated with the Moors and the DNA history of the region. More importantly who were the people sampled?
    Note in the OP diagrams that those Iberian remains from before the 8th century (therefore predating the Muslim conquest) don't look that much different from their Islamic successors in terms of North African and even Levantine ancestry. The pre-Islamic ones already have heavy North African admixture! This would lend credence to your point that most people in Islamic Spain would have been converted locals.

    With that said, calling all the Muslim dynasties in Spain "Moorish" might be a misnomer. I believe that "Moorish" originally referred to natives of the region called Mauretania by the Romans, with the name possibly being derived from the Mauri tribe. On the other hand, the Umayyad rulers who first spread Islam to Iberia in the 8th century were of Arabian origin IIRC, even if they had African recruits in their armies. So it wouldn't necessarily be quite right to portray Islamic Spain as some inverted Rhodesia with an African ruling class lording over a European populace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    Note in the OP diagrams that those Iberian remains from before the 8th century (therefore predating the Muslim conquest) don't look that much different from their Islamic successors in terms of North African and even Levantine ancestry. The pre-Islamic ones already have heavy North African admixture! This would lend credence to your point that most people in Islamic Spain would have been converted locals.

    With that said, calling all the Muslim dynasties in Spain "Moorish" might be a misnomer. I believe that "Moorish" originally referred to natives of the region called Mauretania by the Romans, with the name possibly being derived from the Mauri tribe. On the other hand, the Umayyad rulers who first spread Islam to Iberia in the 8th century were of Arabian origin IIRC, even if they had African recruits in their armies. So it wouldn't necessarily be quite right to portray Islamic Spain as some inverted Rhodesia with an African ruling class lording over a European populace.

    Just noticed the bolded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    You should actually address the majority of my posts.



    Now can you show me whether or not those Moors pictured in the paining are "Berbers." Can you show me WHICH samples are Berber Moors? Because we can post pictures all day. And yea like I said there were only a FEW Black/mulatto Moors because the European converts to Islam outnumbered them. Although the invading forces would've been Saharan Berbers with Arab elites. This is well known. However, what are you thoughts on studies like this one?


    The genomic enigma of two Medieval North Africans

    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35210

    Now this is IN Africa/Maghreb. And its saying what I been saying. These medieval North Africans weren't identical to the modern ones because of not just increased SSA but Mediterranean European ancestry. If anything they were indignous North Africans. But how did they look?






    I don't care what Afrocentrics or Eurocentrics have to say. Follow the source and the source only.


    Here is how some of the Moors/Berbers were described.

    (Ramey, L., 2008)

    written by Isidore of Seville in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation by Steven A. Barney, published 2007. p. 386.


    Forgeries of Memory and Meaning: Blacks and the Regimes of Race in American



    Corippus, a Byzantine in Book I, 245 of Johannidus, Book 1, 245

    These are some examples. And note they are mostly prior to the 14th century. But more


    Source? Because most Moors were listed as Saharan Berbers.
    According to whom? Southern Berbers and even more southernly Saharan Berbers were not even converted to Islam yet (or conquered by Islamic rule)

    From Arabic source most were Ghomaras from Tetouan areas an since it's the Roman Governor of Tangiers that opened the doors to Spain for the Muslims and Algerian tribesmen lead by Tareq Ibn Zyan since Tareq Ibn Zyan moved from Algeria to Morocco.

    And Saharan Berbers are ethnic Berbers unlike what you seem to believe most Mauritanian Moors and Tuaregs look ethnic Berber or Berber-ish. Just watch news from Mauritania you'll notice the local Moors easily by their phenotypes. They look Berber.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    The moors were berbers and even the "arab" elite were probably berber in terms of their genetic makeup.The Ummayad prince that fled to Spain and founded the Ummayad Caliphate in Al-Andalus was half berber himself, his mother's ancestry helped him get across from Egypt through the Maghreb relatively easily.


    @Dohan if I recall there were medieval muslims soldiers found in southern france and they happened to be E-M81
    Yeah Abderahman was half Berber from his mother and he used it as a tribal shelter.
    Last edited by Dohan.; 2019-05-23 at 15:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Southeastern Spain 10-16th century AD. And they appear to be European/Iberian-North African mixtures. The ones in Spain at least. Modern Spainards are much less North African. It appears these people were kicked out and the modern Iberians absorbed only a small amount of their genes (though some, yes).

    My guess of course, is that the Moors in actual North Africa/The Maghreb had less Iberian ancestry. (The Late Neolithic Morrocons already had some Iberian ancestry, though).

    Man I wish we had some pigmentation data on these guys. They wont be Northern European looking or anything, but I expect at least a significant fraction them to have light eyes and even lightish hair.

    Awesome stuff.
    No i think it's the opposite ancient andalusians had way more north african ancestry than the modern ones who mainly come from the north

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    The moors were berbers and even the "arab" elite were probably berber in terms of their genetic makeup.The Ummayad prince that fled to Spain and founded the Ummayad Caliphate in Al-Andalus was half berber himself, his mother's ancestry helped him get across from Egypt through the Maghreb relatively easily.


    @Dohan if I recall there were medieval muslims soldiers found in southern france and they happened to be E-M81
    exactly :



    These bodies were found in Nimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    You should actually address the majority of my posts.



    Now can you show me whether or not those Moors pictured in the paining are "Berbers." Can you show me WHICH samples are Berber Moors? Because we can post pictures all day. And yea like I said there were only a FEW Black/mulatto Moors because the European converts to Islam outnumbered them. Although the invading forces would've been Saharan Berbers with Arab elites. This is well known. However, what are you thoughts on studies like this one?


    The genomic enigma of two Medieval North Africans

    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35210

    Now this is IN Africa/Maghreb. And its saying what I been saying. These medieval North Africans weren't identical to the modern ones because of not just increased SSA but Mediterranean European ancestry. If anything they were indignous North Africans. But how did they look?






    I don't care what Afrocentrics or Eurocentrics have to say. Follow the source and the source only.


    Here is how some of the Moors/Berbers were described.

    (Ramey, L., 2008)

    written by Isidore of Seville in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation by Steven A. Barney, published 2007. p. 386.


    Forgeries of Memory and Meaning: Blacks and the Regimes of Race in American



    Corippus, a Byzantine in Book I, 245 of Johannidus, Book 1, 245

    These are some examples. And note they are mostly prior to the 14th century. But more importantly what did the term "Moor" mean in the beginning? Remember its a Greco-Roman term originally.


    Source? Because most Moors were listed as Saharan Berbers.

    Your answer doesn't even make sense : It's well known that the moors who invaded spain were from north morocco especially the riffian region their general tarik ibn ziyad was a berber from the oulhaça tribe from western algeria ( but it's not sure ) the arabs didn't even invaded the sahara yet so how could they be saharans ? I think you're speaking about almoravids who were indeed from mauritania and south morocco and some of them were probably dark-skinned but that happened way later not in 711. Here a source about the origin of those moors :
    many tribes of northern Morocco were trained by the Muslims to conquer spain, which began in 709. The Berbers found in the peninsula glory and profit: they became solidary of the Moslem expansion of which they were the best workers . it is the conquest of Spain that has consolidated the domination of Islam on Berber and especially on northern Morocco. Terrasse,tome I : 89
    Also about this "enigma" i don't know what's surprising here ( from your source ) :
    Alternatively, both Mediterranean Europe and Southern Africa are known source regions in the Arab slave trade, thus they could potentially represent the offspring of slaves of different origin. The Arab slave trade extended over a longer period and may have involved more slaves than its transatlantic counterpart
    also :
    “In 13 January 2012, an exhaustive genetic study of North Africa's human populations was published.The researchers analyzed around 800,000 genetic markers, distributed throughout the entire genome in 125 North African individuals belonging to seven representative populations in the whole region (Saharawi, South Moroccans, North Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians Berbers, Libyans and Egyptians) and the information obtained was compared with the information from the neighbouring populations. The data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Henn, BM; Botigué, LR; Gravel, S; Wang, W; Brisbin, A et al. (2012)
    So just with this it shows how your sources were biased and innacurate probably due to their ignorance (misconceptions) or maybe that for them a swarthy north african was "black"

    We also have depictions of guanches who were preserved from all those invasions :







    So what's your point ?
    Last edited by NassBean; 2019-05-23 at 19:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    Note in the OP diagrams that those Iberian remains from before the 8th century (therefore predating the Muslim conquest) don't look that much different from their Islamic successors in terms of North African and even Levantine ancestry. The pre-Islamic ones already have heavy North African admixture! This would lend credence to your point that most people in Islamic Spain would have been converted locals.

    With that said, calling all the Muslim dynasties in Spain "Moorish" might be a misnomer. I believe that "Moorish" originally referred to natives of the region called Mauretania by the Romans, with the name possibly being derived from the Mauri tribe. On the other hand, the Umayyad rulers who first spread Islam to Iberia in the 8th century were of Arabian origin IIRC, even if they had African recruits in their armies. So it wouldn't necessarily be quite right to portray Islamic Spain as some inverted Rhodesia with an African ruling class lording over a European populace.
    You are correct in that even the pre Islamic Southern Iberians have a lot of North African admixture. Man this must go way back to Roman and Carthaginian times.

    So basically there was back and forth geneflow that went both ways. Looks like the North African admixture took a big nose dive in Iberia after the Reconquista. Though it's still there.

    Also, I do not know what their model is for "North African Admixture"....I think it's Late Neolithic folks from Morroco (whom we already know had some light skin and hair features).

    It'll take me hours to read that study in full detail along with the supplementary info. But i'll do it (give me a few days)
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-05-23 at 19:28.

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    Moorish and Christian Reconquista battle take from The "Cantigas de Santa Maria.



    Look at all those Black and Super dark Muslims, half of them have brown and red beards.

    Who wants to bet Hannibal's army that gave Rome hell millennia earlier was just as White?

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    Has anyone seen Game of Thrones?

    You know the Unsullied, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dohan. View Post
    According to whom? Southern Berbers and even more southernly Saharan Berbers were not even converted to Islam yet (or conquered by Islamic rule)

    From Arabic source most were Ghomaras from Tetouan areas an since it's the Roman Governor of Tangiers that opened the doors to Spain for the Muslims and Algerian tribesmen lead by Tareq Ibn Zyan since Tareq Ibn Zyan moved from Algeria to Morocco.

    And Saharan Berbers are ethnic Berbers unlike what you seem to believe most Mauritanian Moors and Tuaregs look ethnic Berber or Berber-ish. Just watch news from Mauritania you'll notice the local Moors easily by their phenotypes. They look Berber.

    Addressing the bolded I'm NOT talking about Mauritanian Berbers. And can you post your a source? For one during the Fatimid dynasty the Berber group that made up the majority of the infantry were the Masmuda.

    The Masmuda or Masamida Berbers controlled the entirety of the western part of Maghreb or North West Africa between western Algeria and Morocco until the coming of another black population known as the Zanata Berbers of Botr, or El Abter stock. They also maintained power in many towns of Spain.

    "Kel Owey girl of the Imakitan Tuareg"
    A Kel Owey girl, member of the Imakitan Tuaregs (formerly called Ikitamen) now located in Niger and are known in Arab texts as the KITAMA or KUTAMA Berbers and anciently as the "Mauri" or "Ethiopian" colored people called Uacutameni, Micatateni or Mactunia manus. Centuries ago, the "Kutama branch of the Berbers inhabited the region of Little Kabylia" in Northern Algeria.
    UNESCO's Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, Ivan Hrbek et al., 1992, p. 164.

    Also I believe the Masmuda are who you're referring to because the Ghomaras if I remember correctly were apart of the Masmuda confederacy.

    Coat of Arms of Sardinia. As with the heraldry of families named with variants of Mori or Moor, several countries in Europe have flags and coat of arms with the heads of Moors on them. Military historian, Yaacov Lev in the article , “Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt” (1987) wrote of Nasir Khusroes of the 11th century who speaks of the "20,000" Masmuda men that made up part of the Fatimid troops in Egypt in his time saying, “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords

    (from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365).


    The Masmuda were also a confederacy in the Sahara. I'll post additional sources on them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    Your answer doesn't even make sense : It's well known that the moors who invaded spain were from north morocco especially the riffian region their general tarik ibn ziyad was a berber from the oulhaça tribe from western algeria ( but it's not sure ) the arabs didn't even invaded the sahara yet so how could they be saharans ? I think you're speaking about almoravids who were indeed from mauritania and south morocco and some of them were probably dark-skinned but that happened way later not in 711. Here a source about the origin of those moors :

    Also about this "enigma" i don't know what's surprising here ( from your source ) :

    also :

    So just with this it shows how your sources were biased and innacurate probably due to their ignorance (misconceptions) or maybe that for them a swarthy north african was "black"

    We also have depictions of guanches who were preserved from all those invasions :







    So what's your point ?
    How are my sources biased or inaccurate? lol. This is why I didn't even wanna debate this. Second how are the guanches(I'll get to them later) relevant to this? Yes my source states that BOTb European and SSA ancestry is recent to the region compared to the ancestry Northwest Africans have today.


    And no I am not confusing the Almoravids with earlier Berber groups during the first Iberian invasion.


    Edit:
    Your photes are dated 15th century. Mind showing older photos?
    Last edited by BlessedbyHorus; 2019-05-23 at 21:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Moorish and Christian Reconquista battle take from The "Cantigas de Santa Maria.



    Look at all those Black and Super dark Muslims, half of them have brown and red beards.

    Who wants to bet Hannibal's army that gave Rome hell millennia earlier was just as White?

    Nice more White Moors. Now can you explain to us WHICH Berber group they belonged to? The Masmuda?Lamtuna/Zenata? Sanhaja? Atlas Berbers? Also what about THESE paintings of the Moors?

    From a German tapestry entitled "Wild Men and Moors" (13th century)

    I mean we can picture spam all day to be honest. I know plenty of paintings by the Europeans who depict a good amount of the invading Moors as "Black." So trying to use the same old "swarthy" vs pale European argument is not gonna work.


    And since you didn't answer my questions lets just look up the etymology of the term "Moor."

    "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor

    ^^^Again, saying what I've BEEN saying. The term originally meant "Black" but soon meant Muslims in general especially the White ones in Iberia who soon outnumbered the "Black Moors."

    Mauri, the inhabitants of Mauritania. This name is derived from their black complexion
    -A classical dictionary: containing a copious account of all proper names mentioned in ancient authors, with the value of coins, weights, and measures used among the Greeks and Romans, and a chronological table (1822) by John Lemprière


    Let me guess you going to write the sources off as Afrocentric?
    Last edited by BlessedbyHorus; 2019-05-23 at 21:34.

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