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Thread: Race of the Moors in Spain, Most were Borderline White men?89 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Addressing the bolded I'm NOT talking about Mauritanian Berbers. And can you post your a source? For one during the Fatimid dynasty the Berber group that made up the majority of the infantry were the Masmuda.


    UNESCO's Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, Ivan Hrbek et al., 1992, p. 164.

    Also I believe the Masmuda are who you're referring to because the Ghomaras if I remember correctly were apart of the Masmuda confederacy.


    (from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365).


    The Masmuda were also a confederacy in the Sahara. I'll post additional sources on them.

    - - - Updated - - -



    How are my sources biased or inaccurate? lol. This is why I didn't even wanna debate this. Second how are the guanches(I'll get to them later) relevant to this? Yes my source states that BOTb European and SSA ancestry is recent to the region compared to the ancestry Northwest Africans have today.
    Because you're implying that original moors were black which is of course impossible that's why i posted guanches. yes 15th century before that no one viewed them !
    Last edited by NassBean; 2019-05-23 at 21:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    Because you're implying that original moors were black which is of course impossible that's why i posted guanches.

    Were the Guanches apart of the original invading force of Iberia? Also if I remember correctly there were other non-Guanche groups apart of the Canary islands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Were the Guanches apart of the original invading force of Iberia? Also if I remember correctly there were other non-Guanche groups apart of the Canary islands.
    Yes but from where do you think these guanches came from ? there is no chance berbers and especially northern berbers were black so yes your sources are innacurate or maybe it was a way to belittle moors. You start to sound like an afrocentrist ...

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    "In Mauritania, the Haratin form one of the largest ethnic groups and account for as much as 40% of the Mauritanians. They are sometimes referred to as "Black Moors",[12] in contrast to Beidane, or "White Moors". The Haratin are Arabic-speakers. They are either former slaves or the descendants of slaves from sub-Saharan West Africa, some acquired by Berbers after the 3rd century, and others after the arrival of the Arabs.[13] Most of them have origins in the ethnic groups such as the Bambara, Fulani, Soninké and Wolof people. They have adopted the language and culture of the Berber or Arab community they have lived with.[4]

    The Haratin of Mauritania, states Joseph Hellweg – a professor of Anthropology specializing on West African studies, were part of a social caste-like hierarchy that likely developed from a Bedouin legacy between 1300 and 1500 CE. The "Hassan" monopolized the occupations related to war and politics, the "Zwaya" (Zawaya) the religious roles, the "Bidan" (White Moors) owned property and held slaves (Haratins, Black Moors), and the slaves constituted the lowest of the social strata.[14] Each of these were castes, endogamous, with hereditary occupations and where the upper strata collected tribute (horma) from the lower strata of Mauritanian society, considered them socially inferior, and denied them the right to own land or weapons thereby creating a socio-economically closed system.[15][16][17]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harati..._in_Mauritania

    "Beidane or Beidan (Arabic: بيدن‎) is an Arabic term used in the Maghreb region of North Africa to refer to lighter-skinned (so-called "white") Moors. In contrast to Haratin, which refers to those with a darker complexion, or black. The Beidane inhabit most of what is now Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and to a lesser extent Egypt. The Beidane refers to those of Arab, Berber, or Arab-Berber descent, however, large populations on the northern coast of North Africa, also have Iberian blood; going back to the Spanish Reconquista. The main language of the Beidane is Arabic and to a lesser extent Tamazight (Berber)."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidane


    Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on Mauritania:

    "The Moors constitute more than two-thirds of the population. About three-fifths of the Moorish population has Sudanic African origins and is collectively known as Ḥarāṭīn (singular Ḥarṭānī; sometimes referred to by the outside world as “Black Moors”). About two-fifths of the Moorish population self-identifies as Bīḍān (singular Bīḍānī, translated literally as “white”; “White Moors”), which indicates individuals of Arab and Amazigh (Berber) descent. The Ḥarāṭīn speak the same language as the Bīḍān and, in the past, were part of the nomadic economy. They served as domestic help and labourers for the nomadic camps, and, although some remain, they were the first to depart for urban settlements with the collapse of the nomadic economy in the 1980s.[...]

    In Moorish society the nobles consisted of two types of lineages: ʿarabs, or warriors, descendants of the Banū Ḥassān and known as the Ḥassānīs, and murābiṭ—called marabouts by the French and known in their own language as zawāyā after the name of a place of religious study (see zāwiyah)—who were holy men and scholars of religious texts. The warriors generally claimed Arab descent, and many of the zawāyā traced their origins to Amazigh lineages. The greatest part of the Bīḍān population consisted of vassals who received protection from the warriors or zawāyā to whom they paid tribute. At the bottom of the social hierarchy were two artisan classes—the blacksmiths and the griots (troubadour-praise singers). Servant classes were subdivided into slaves and freedmen, the Ḥarāṭīn, although their personal autonomy was severely limited in the nomadic economy."

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Mauritania#ref516795


    "Haratin, also spelled Harratin, inhabitants of oases in the Sahara, especially in southern Morocco and Mauritania, who constitute a socially and ethnically distinct class of workers.

    In the 17th century they were forcibly recruited into the ʿAbīd al-Bukhārī, the elite army of the Moroccan ruler Ismāʿīl. In modern times they are, in effect, serfs tied to the land, no longer slaves, as they originally are presumed to have been, but without the privileges of free people. Many Haratin work in the palm groves or as herdsmen in the south; those who can migrate north are often employed in menial jobs attached to the soil."

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haratin
    Last edited by Reason1234; 2019-05-23 at 21:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    Yes but from where do you think these guanches came from ? there is no chance berbers and especially northern berbers were black so yes your sources are innacurate or maybe it was a way to belittle moors. You start to sound like an afrocentrist ...

    Prove my sources are inaccurate before you excuse anyone of being Afrocentric. When most were first hand sources. I notice in arguments like these opponents try to downplay other sources. And since you are Moroccan yourself can you detail me which Berber tribes were listed among the Moors? Because most here have failed. Can you show me the Guanches being among the early Moorish infantry? Because I already showed my case for the Masmuda.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    "In Mauritania, the Haratin form one of the largest ethnic groups and account for as much as 40% of the Mauritanians. They are sometimes referred to as "Black Moors",[12] in contrast to Beidane, or "White Moors". The Haratin are Arabic-speakers. They are either former slaves or the descendants of slaves from sub-Saharan West Africa, some acquired by Berbers after the 3rd century, and others after the arrival of the Arabs.[13] Most of them have origins in the ethnic groups such as the Bambara, Fulani, Soninké and Wolof people. They have adopted the language and culture of the Berber or Arab community they have lived with.[4]

    The Haratin of Mauritania, states Joseph Hellweg – a professor of Anthropology specializing on West African studies, were part of a social caste-like hierarchy that likely developed from a Bedouin legacy between 1300 and 1500 CE. The "Hassan" monopolized the occupations related to war and politics, the "Zwaya" (Zawaya) the religious roles, the "Bidan" (White Moors) owned property and held slaves (Haratins, Black Moors), and the slaves constituted the lowest of the social strata.[14] Each of these were castes, endogamous, with hereditary occupations and where the upper strata collected tribute (horma) from the lower strata of Mauritanian society, considered them socially inferior, and denied them the right to own land or weapons thereby creating a socio-economically closed system.[15][16][17]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harati..._in_Mauritania

    "Beidane or Beidan (Arabic: بيدن‎) is an Arabic term used in the Maghreb region of North Africa to refer to lighter-skinned (so-called "white") Moors. In contrast to Haratin, which refers to those with a darker complexion, or black. The Beidane inhabit most of what is now Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and to a lesser extent Egypt. The Beidane refers to those of Arab, Berber, or Arab-Berber descent, however, large populations on the northern coast of North Africa, also have Iberian blood; going back to the Spanish Reconquista. The main language of the Beidane is Arabic and to a lesser extent Tamazight (Berber)."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidane


    Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on Mauritania:

    "The Moors constitute more than two-thirds of the population. About three-fifths of the Moorish population has Sudanic African origins and is collectively known as Ḥarāṭīn (singular Ḥarṭānī; sometimes referred to by the outside world as “Black Moors”). About two-fifths of the Moorish population self-identifies as Bīḍān (singular Bīḍānī, translated literally as “white”; “White Moors”), which indicates individuals of Arab and Amazigh (Berber) descent. The Ḥarāṭīn speak the same language as the Bīḍān and, in the past, were part of the nomadic economy. They served as domestic help and labourers for the nomadic camps, and, although some remain, they were the first to depart for urban settlements with the collapse of the nomadic economy in the 1980s.[...]

    In Moorish society the nobles consisted of two types of lineages: ʿarabs, or warriors, descendants of the Banū Ḥassān and known as the Ḥassānīs, and murābiṭ—called marabouts by the French and known in their own language as zawāyā after the name of a place of religious study (see zāwiyah)—who were holy men and scholars of religious texts. The warriors generally claimed Arab descent, and many of the zawāyā traced their origins to Amazigh lineages. The greatest part of the Bīḍān population consisted of vassals who received protection from the warriors or zawāyā to whom they paid tribute. At the bottom of the social hierarchy were two artisan classes—the blacksmiths and the griots (troubadour-praise singers). Servant classes were subdivided into slaves and freedmen, the Ḥarāṭīn, although their personal autonomy was severely limited in the nomadic economy."

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Mauritania#ref516795


    "Haratin, also spelled Harratin, inhabitants of oases in the Sahara, especially in southern Morocco and Mauritania, who constitute a socially and ethnically distinct class of workers.

    In the 17th century they were forcibly recruited into the ʿAbīd al-Bukhārī, the elite army of the Moroccan ruler Ismāʿīl. In modern times they are, in effect, serfs tied to the land, no longer slaves, as they originally are presumed to have been, but without the privileges of free people. Many Haratin work in the palm groves or as herdsmen in the south; those who can migrate north are often employed in menial jobs attached to the soil."

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haratin

    Not sure how this addresses anything considering the Haratin were late comers and no one is even mentioning modern day Mauritania. The 17th century especially being a very late date. What purpose does this post serve?

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    Black moors are slaves/descendants of slaves and other servile groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Prove my sources are inaccurate before you excuse anyone of being Afrocentric. When most were first hand sources. I notice in arguments like these opponents try to downplay other sources. And since you are Moroccan yourself can you detail me which Berber tribes were listed among the Moors? Because most here have failed. Can you show me the Guanches being among the early Moorish infantry? Because I already showed my case for the Masmuda.

    - - - Updated - - -




    Not sure how this addresses anything considering the Haratin were late comers and no one is even mentioning modern day Mauritania. The 17th century especially being a very late date. What purpose does this post serve?
    I already proved my point now use your common sense pls Seriously i do my best to be nice and respectful but you always bring those afrocentrist lies This debate is useless because you already know that berbers were absolutely not black during the 7th and 8th century. btw these moors were from the north especially ghomaras and jebalas+ 300 arabs.

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    @BlessedbyHorus is delusional like all negrocentrics are.Only dumb ass negrocentrics would believe that the population of Al Andalus was negroid (We Wuz Kangz).Al Andalus comprised of the Arab elites,Berber soldiers and local Iberians.Later on with the advent of the trans saharan slave trade would there be a tiny neglible population of negroe slaves and with the fall of the ummayads did finally Berber dynasties vie for power in the Iberian Peninsula

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    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    I already proved my point now use your common sense pls Seriously i do my best to be nice and respectful but you always bring those afrocentrist lies This debate is useless because you already know that berbers were absolutely not black during the 7th and 8th century. btw these moors were from the north especially ghomaras and jebalas+ 300 arabs.
    What lies am I bringing? I bought up the Masmuda and already stated to @Dohan that the Ghomaras were most likely apart of the Masmuda confederacy since that confederacy was also in that same area and I posted description on how they were described. And since you bring up the 7th and 8th century here are how the "Moors" were described during that period.
    "All the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired… their black faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was like (as black as) a cooking pan."
    Forgeries of Memory and Meaning: Blacks and the Regimes of Race in American

    Also here... 6th c. A.D.--Corippus, a Byzantine in Book I, 245 of Johannidus, Book 1, 245, speaking of Moors in the area of North Africa who he felt had "faces of a horrible black color" stated, “Maura videbatur facies, nigro colore horrida” (Michell, G.B. (1903, Jan.). The Berbers. Journal of the Royal African Society, 2(6), (pp. 161-194). He also refers to some Moorish captives as "black as crows."

    All first hand accounts. I don't like using wikipedia but back to the Masmuda/Ghomaras.

    The Masmuda is a Berber tribal confederacy of Morocco and one of the largest in the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and the Sanhaja.[1] They were composed of several sub-tribes: Berghouatas, Ghomaras (Ghomarids), Hintatas (Hafsids), Tin Malel, Hergha, Genfisa, Seksiwa, Gedmiwa, Hezerdja, Urika, Guerouanes, Bni M'tir, Hezmira, Regraga, Haha les Banou Maghus, Gilawa and others. Today, the Masmuda confederacy largely corresponds to the speakers of the Shilha (Tachelhit) Berber variety, whereas other clans, such as Regraga and Doukkala, have adopted Arabic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masmuda

    Like I expected the Ghomaras were a subtribe of the larger Masmuda. And I already posted how the Masmuda were described. So again what lies?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    @BlessedbyHorus is delusional like all negrocentrics are.Only dumb ass negrocentrics would believe that the population of Al Andalus was negroid (We Wuz Kangz).Al Andalus comprised of the Arab elites,Berber soldiers and local Iberians.Later on with the advent of the trans saharan slave trade would there be a tiny neglible population of negroe slaves and with the fall of the ummayads did finally Berber dynasties vie for power in the Iberian Peninsula

    Except I said in my very first post that the majority were local/European. And also that the Moors were led by Arab elites. Nice try.
    Last edited by BlessedbyHorus; 2019-05-23 at 22:59.

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