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Thread: Race of the Moors in Spain, Most were Borderline White men?91 days old

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    Default Race of the Moors in Spain, Most were Borderline White men?

    So i'm looking at some of the data from the Iberian study that came out a few months ago.

    Only 2 of the 23 samples dated from 10-16th century CE have significant Sub-Saharan ancestry. Most have none. It looks like the majority of the people were a mix of Late Neolithic North Africans and local Bronze Age Basque and Celtic Iberians.

    Who are these guys from the Islamic period represented by the green circles with crosses in them in the key? They're clearly not modern Spaniards. On PCA they're intermediate between Spaniards and Late Neolithic North Africans. Aside from the 2 sub-Saharan influenced ones that is.





    Source :
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...Transect_0.pdf


    We wuz Muslim Kings and shit
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-05-23 at 01:11.

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    Yes the majority of Moors were European Muslim converts. This isn't surprising or anything new. Now look up the etymology of the term, the Berbers who were associated with the Moors and the DNA history of the region. More importantly who were the people sampled?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Yes the majority of Moors were European Muslim converts. This isn't surprising or anything new. Now look up the etymology of the term, the Berbers who were associated with the Moors and the DNA history of the region. More importantly who were the people sampled?
    Southeastern Spain 10-16th century AD. And they appear to be European/Iberian-North African mixtures. The ones in Spain at least. Modern Spainards are much less North African. It appears these people were kicked out and the modern Iberians absorbed only a small amount of their genes (though some, yes).

    My guess of course, is that the Moors in actual North Africa/The Maghreb had less Iberian ancestry. (The Late Neolithic Morrocons already had some Iberian ancestry, though).

    Man I wish we had some pigmentation data on these guys. They wont be Northern European looking or anything, but I expect at least a significant fraction them to have light eyes and even lightish hair.

    Awesome stuff.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-05-23 at 01:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Southeastern Spain 10-16th century AD. And they appear to be European/Iberian-North African mixtures. The ones in Spain at least. Modern Spainards are much less North African.
    I mean why wouldn't they be? This thread assumes that Europeans weren't the majority in their own nation. Like I said there were many Muslim converts during the time that outnumbered the invading force whether they were Berber, Arabs or SSA. As for the bolded many forget that many Muslims were expelled from Iberia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    My guess of course, is that the Moors in actual North Africa/The Maghreb had less Iberian ancestry. (The Late Neolithic Morrocons already had some Iberian ancestry, though).
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post

    Man I wish we had some pigmentation data on these guys. They wont be Northern european looking or anything, but I expect at least a significant fraction them to have light eyes and even lightish hair.
    We may not have pigmentation data but we do have first hand accounts and if I were to post them many of you guys especially the North African posters would jump me and label me an "Afrocentric" or "Black supremacist" stealing other people's history.

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    We may not have pigmentation data but we do have first hand accounts and if I were to post them many of you guys especially the North African posters would jump me and label me an "Afrocentric" or "Black supremacist" stealing other people's history.
    I have always said that there were a few Black or Mulatto moors, but if you look at frescoes and stuff, the overwhelming majority look White. There are some frescoes which show Black Moors though. This study basically proves what i've always believed. 2 of the 23 samples were Mulatto.

    Just look at the OP. On the left there is two Castilian Spaniards and on the right 4 Moors. Racially speaking they look hardly different aside from clothing and having beards.

    Yet Afrocentrism would have us believe the Moors were an invading Black force into Spain.

    https://atlantablackstar.com/2013/10...e-world-moors/
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-05-23 at 05:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    So i'm looking at some of the data from the Iberian study that came out a few months ago.

    Only 2 of the 23 samples dated from 10-16th century CE have significant Sub-Saharan ancestry. Most have none. It looks like the majority of the people were a mix of Late Neolithic North Africans and local Bronze Age Basque and Celtic Iberians.

    Who are these guys from the Islamic period represented by the green circles with crosses in them in the key? They're clearly not modern Spaniards. On PCA they're intermediate between Spaniards and Late Neolithic North Africans. Aside from the 2 sub-Saharan influenced ones that is.





    Source :
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...Transect_0.pdf


    We wuz Muslim Kings and shit



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    Afrocentrist never made sense to begin with since most of the Berbers who participated in the Moorish invasion of Spain were Riffians from the Ghomara tribe just the opposite side of Spain , the rest Algerian Berbers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Those Moriscos look 1/2 to 1/4 (majority) Spanish - Northern Moroccan mixture.

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    The moors were berbers and even the "arab" elite were probably berber in terms of their genetic makeup.The Ummayad prince that fled to Spain and founded the Ummayad Caliphate in Al-Andalus was half berber himself, his mother's ancestry helped him get across from Egypt through the Maghreb relatively easily.


    @Dohan if I recall there were medieval muslims soldiers found in southern france and they happened to be E-M81

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    Hall of Kings, Alhambra, Andalusia, Spain:



    Depiction of the of the moorish Nasrid dynasty.

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    You should actually address the majority of my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    I have always said that there were a few Black or Mulatto moors, but if you look at frescoes and stuff, the overwhelming majority look White. There are some frescoes which show Black Moors though. This study basically proves what i've always believed. 2 of the 23 samples were Mulatto.

    Just look at the OP. On the left there is two Castilian Spaniards and on the right 4 Moors. Racially speaking they look hardly different aside from clothing and having beards.
    Now can you show me whether or not those Moors pictured in the paining are "Berbers." Can you show me WHICH samples are Berber Moors? Because we can post pictures all day. And yea like I said there were only a FEW Black/mulatto Moors because the European converts to Islam outnumbered them. Although the invading forces would've been Saharan Berbers with Arab elites. This is well known. However, what are you thoughts on studies like this one?


    The genomic enigma of two Medieval North Africans
    The trans-Saharan gold and salt trade as well as the trans-Saharan slave trade played an important role in population movements connecting sub-Saharan and Mediterranean economies during the Middle Ages. The slave trade alone is said to have transported more than 9 million slave soldiers and domestic servants along the trans-Saharan route. In this study, we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period. The samples were processed in a designated ancient DNA lab and the genomic data obtained shows standard patterns of authentic ancient DNA with low levels of contamination. Both individuals – which represent the first ancient genome sequence data from North Africa – do not exhibit particular genetic affinities to modern North Africans or any other present-day population in published genotype data sets despite relatively extensive data has been produced from many areas of Africa. In fact, the most parsimonious way to model them genetically is as two-source admixture between Mediterranean Europeans and Southern Africans. The lack of archaeological context of the two individuals opens up various alternatives to explain their genomic pattern. Both individuals could represent a Medieval African population without population continuity to modern-day populations. Alternatively, both Mediterranean Europe and Southern Africa are known source regions in the Arab slave trade, thus they could potentially represent the offspring of slaves of different origin. The Arab slave trade extended over a longer period and may have involved more slaves than its transatlantic counterpart and our data might provide the first genetic insight into this historical process and the people who suffered in it. Our results highlight how archaeogenetic research can shed lights into historical events and long-distance population movements while opening new questions for the interpretation of the data.
    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35210

    Now this is IN Africa/Maghreb. And its saying what I been saying. These medieval North Africans weren't identical to the modern ones because of not just increased SSA but Mediterranean European ancestry. If anything they were indignous North Africans. But how did they look?




    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Yet Afrocentrism would have us believe the Moors were an invading Black force into Spain.

    https://atlantablackstar.com/2013/10...e-world-moors/
    I don't care what Afrocentrics or Eurocentrics have to say. Follow the source and the source only.


    Here is how some of the Moors/Berbers were described.

    “underlines the fact that Moors are so named because they are black, and their blackness comes from the heat of the sun (9.2.121-23)”
    (Ramey, L., 2008)

    "The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..."
    written by Isidore of Seville in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation by Steven A. Barney, published 2007. p. 386.

    "All the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired… their black faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was like (as black as) a cooking pan."
    Forgeries of Memory and Meaning: Blacks and the Regimes of Race in American


    "faces of a horrible black color" stated, “Maura videbatur facies, nigro colore horrida” (Michell, G.B. (1903, Jan.). The Berbers. Journal of the Royal African Society, 2(6), (pp. 161-194). He also refers to some Moorish captives as "black as crows."
    Corippus, a Byzantine in Book I, 245 of Johannidus, Book 1, 245

    These are some examples. And note they are mostly prior to the 14th century. But more importantly what did the term "Moor" mean in the beginning? Remember its a Greco-Roman term originally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dohan. View Post
    Afrocentrist never made sense to begin with since most of the Berbers who participated in the Moorish invasion of Spain were Riffians from the Ghomara tribe just the opposite side of Spain , the rest Algerian Berbers.
    Source? Because most Moors were listed as Saharan Berbers.
    Last edited by BlessedbyHorus; 2019-05-23 at 14:31.

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