User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: When the Moors conquered Spain...did Spaniards already speak Spanish.. 🇪🇸1796 days old

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Citizen of Rome Xochi's Avatar
    Last Online
    2014-11-05 @ 22:32
    Join Date
    2014-06-07
    Posts
    723
    Gender

    Default When the Moors conquered Spain...did Spaniards already speak Spanish.. 🇪🇸

    I came across this question while browsing another thread. What do you think?

    From what I understand, they already spoke the languages they do now (or at least starting to diverge from Latin), but without the influence from Arabic. What they spoke at that time was a 'mixture' of Latin and the Celtic languages that were spoken in Iberia before the Romans came. There was also some Germanic influence since Germanic tribes came to Iberia after the Roman empire, and Spain was ruled by the Germanic Visigoths until the arrival of the Moors.

    Here are few answers from that forum:

    They spoke Latin

    After the moors conquered Spain, the christians split into small regions in the northern mountains and the latin language would evolve differently in the different regions, creating new languages:
    Galician, Asturian, Castilian, Aragonese and Catalan. Galician would later evolve into Portuguese.

    Since Castile would become the largest and widest populated area and the monarchs of the future reunited Spain would be castilian, foreigners started using the word "Spanish" instead of "Castilian" for the most commonly used language among spaniards. But that's like in the 1600s
    -
    Before the moors conquered most of Spain (northern coast did never get conquered, really), Hispania was populated by:
    - Hispanorromans, vast majority of the population, descendent from the citizens of the Roman Empire in the region. They spoke Latin
    - Sephardic Jews. Sefarad is the Hebrew word for Spain. They spoke Hebrew and Latin
    - Visigoths, rulers of the country after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Of Germanic origin, they spoke Gothic but also Latin
    - indigenous peer roman tribes, like the Astures, Cantabrians or Basques, spoke their native language.

    As expectable, since there was no structured education and most people did not know how to write or read, with this complicated ethnic melting pot, the language spoken was some sort of broken Latin.

    When the visigothic kingdom fell apart and the moors stepped in, the northern regions became independent kingdoms (Galicia, Portugal, Asturias, Leon, Castile, Navarra, Aragon and Catalonia) where language and culture evolved differently creating different variants of broken Latin: Galaico-Portuguese,
    Astur-Leonese, Castilian, Aragonese and Catalan.

    As Castile would expand and became the richest and most populated kingdom in the area, Castilian became the de facto language within the region and the language was called as "Spanish" by foreigners... But still today, in Spain we call it Castellano.
    -
    I BELIEVE, it's been awhile, that they spoke Vulgar Latin that was beginning branching off to Old Spanish an Old Catalan
    -
    NO.

    The common language of the people was still Vulgar Latin. There were probably some remnants of Gothic spoken by the ruling class and as a liturgical language - at the time of the Moorish invasion, most of what is now Spain was a Visigothic kingdom with a Visigoth ruling class and Hispano-Roman general population.

    The Moors invaded in 711. The earliest date possible for anything that could be called Spanish (Castilian, actually) is the 9th Century. The earliest known written document in what might be called Castilian as opposed to Latin is from the 10th Century. See Glossas Emilianenses for more on that.
    The Moors were there for at least a century before anything that could be called Spanish. The first Spanish grammar was written in 1492 - just as the last of the Moors were expelled from europe.

  2. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  3. #2
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist a_garcia49's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 07:02
    Join Date
    2013-01-20
    Posts
    4,143
    Location
    Bay Area
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    Q-M3
    mtDNA
    A2
    Ethnicity
    Mexican-American
    Phenotype
    Mestizo
    Religion
    Atheist
    United States Mexico

    Default

    I would say that they mostly spoke Latin at the time.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to a_garcia49 For This Useful Post:

    Caipira (2014-08-17)

  5. #3
    Junior Member bintaym's Avatar
    Last Online
    2014-08-21 @ 00:30
    Join Date
    2014-08-16
    Posts
    4
    Location
    Paris
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    J1
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Phenotype
    Arabid
    Metaethnos
    Muslim Arab
    Ethnicity
    Arab
    Arab League Morocco Islamic Conference

    Default

    Idem Spanish language and mainly consists of Latin although it's it infulence of german arab berber Punic and other... like all languages

  6. #4
    Junior Member bintaym's Avatar
    Last Online
    2014-08-21 @ 00:30
    Join Date
    2014-08-16
    Posts
    4
    Location
    Paris
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    J1
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Phenotype
    Arabid
    Metaethnos
    Muslim Arab
    Ethnicity
    Arab
    Arab League Morocco Islamic Conference

    Default

    Spanish language and mainly consists of Latin although it's it infulence of german arab berber Punic and other... like all languages

  7. #5
    Regular Member
    Citizen of Rome Xochi's Avatar
    Last Online
    2014-11-05 @ 22:32
    Join Date
    2014-06-07
    Posts
    723
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by a_garcia49 View Post
    I would say that they mostly spoke Latin at the time.
    Not too long ago, I came across this (Vulgar) Latin text from 844 Iberia.

    ...in loco que uocitant Elzeto cum fueros de totas nostras absque aliquis uis causa, id est, de illa costegera de Valle Conposita usque ad illa uinea de Ual Sorazanes et deinde ad illo plano de Elzeto et ad Sancta Maria de Uallelio usque ad illa senra de Pobalias, absque mea portione, ubi potuerimus inuenire, et de illas custodias, de illas uineas de alios omnes que sunt de alios locos, et omnes que sunt nominatos de Elzeto, senites et iubines, uiriis atque feminis, posuimus inter nos fuero que nos fratres poniamus custodiero de Sancta Maria de Valle Conpossita...
    Last edited by Xochi; 2014-08-17 at 01:47.

  8. #6
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist a_garcia49's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 07:02
    Join Date
    2013-01-20
    Posts
    4,143
    Location
    Bay Area
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    Q-M3
    mtDNA
    A2
    Ethnicity
    Mexican-American
    Phenotype
    Mestizo
    Religion
    Atheist
    United States Mexico

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xochi View Post
    Not too long ago, I came across this (Vulgar) Latin text from 844 Iberia.

    ...in loco que uocitant Elzeto cum fueros de totas nostras absque aliquis uis causa, id est, de illa costegera de Valle Conposita usque ad illa uinea de Ual Sorazanes et deinde ad illo plano de Elzeto et ad Sancta Maria de Uallelio usque ad illa senra de Pobalias, absque mea portione, ubi potuerimus inuenire, et de illas custodias, de illas uineas de alios omnes que sunt de alios locos, et omnes que sunt nominatos de Elzeto, senites et iubines, uiriis atque feminis, posuimus inter nos fuero que nos fratres poniamus custodiero de Sancta Maria de Valle Conpossita...

    "Speak Freakin English"

    But really, what does it mean?

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to a_garcia49 For This Useful Post:

    Noraxen (2014-08-17)

  10. #7
    Regular Member
    Citizen of Rome Xochi's Avatar
    Last Online
    2014-11-05 @ 22:32
    Join Date
    2014-06-07
    Posts
    723
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by a_garcia49 View Post
    But really, what does it mean?
    I don't know. I couldn't find the (possible) translation, but Sancta Maria does look similar to Santa Maria.

    Now I found the oldest known Castillian (Spanish) text: Cantar del mio Cid, a poem written in the mid-twelfth century about the Castilian Hero, Rodrigo Diaz de Bivar, and relating events from his exile from Castile in 1081 until shortly before his death in 1099.

    De los sos oios tan fuertemientre llorando,
    Tornava la cabeça e estavalos catando;
    Vio puertas abiertas e uços sin cañados,
    alcandaras vazias, sin pielles e sin mantos,
    e sin falcones e sin adtores mudados.
    Sospiro Mio Cid, ca mucho avie grandes cuidados.
    Fablo mio Cid bien e tan mesurado:
    «¡grado a ti, Señor Padre, que estas en alto!
    »Esto me an buelto mios enemigos malos.»

    Alli pienssan de aguiiar, alli sueltan las rriendas;
    ala exida de Bivar ovieron la corneia diestra
    e entrando a Burgos ovieronla siniestra.
    Meçio Mio Cid los ombros e engrameo la tiesta:
    «¡Albricia, Albar Fañez, ca echados somos de tierra!»
    [»Mas a grand ondra tornaremos a Castiella.»]

    He turned and looked upon them, and he wept very sore
    As he saw the yawning gateway and the hasps wrenched off the door,
    And the pegs whereon no mantle nor coat of vair there hung.
    There perched no moulting goshawk, and there no falcon swung.
    My lord the Cid sighed deeply such grief was in his heart
    And he spake well and wisely: "Oh Thou, in Heaven that art
    Our Father and our Master, now I give thanks to Thee.
    Of their wickedness my foemen have done this thing to me."

    II Then they shook out the bridle rein further to ride afar.
    They had the crow on their right hand as they issued from Bivar;
    And as they entered Burgos upon their left it sped.
    And the Cid shrugged his shoulders, and the Cid shook his head:
    "Good tidings Alvar Fanez We are banished from our weal,
    But on a day with honor shall we come unto Castile."
    Last edited by Xochi; 2014-08-17 at 02:23.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Xochi For This Useful Post:

    a_garcia49 (2014-08-17)

  12. #8
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist Caipira's Avatar
    Last Online
    2019-06-20 @ 18:45
    Join Date
    2014-01-13
    Posts
    663
    Gender
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Phenotype
    Mediterranid
    Politics
    Liberal conservative
    Religion
    Roman Catholicism
    Brazil Portugal 1485 Portugal Spain Castile Spain traditional Spain

    Default

    For what I remember about the subject (I learned many years ago in college), the "first phase" of the Spanish language per se was developed in between the 9th and 11th century, at least. Before that, it was more like a vulgar Latin. When the Moors arrived, it was in a transition period. But I can be wrong, because it's been a long time since I had these kind of classes in college.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Caipira For This Useful Post:

    Xochi (2014-08-18)

  14. #9
    Wiki Editor
    Established Member
    Junior Member aregint's Avatar
    Last Online
    2018-11-06 @ 01:57
    Join Date
    2010-12-12
    Posts
    1,030
    Location
    BuenosAires
    Gender
    Race
    Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Argentinian
    Phenotype
    Atlanto-Mediterranean
    Politics
    distributionism
    Religion
    catholic
    Argentina Spain traditional Catalonia Galicia Italy

    Default

    All of Iberia and Northern Africa spoke slightly different versions of Vulgar Latin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Romance

    The parts of Iberia that were ruled by the moors had a very diverse population and the people were mainly christians, dominated by a muslim élite.

    - - - Updated - - -

    All of Iberia and Northern Africa spoke slightly different versions of Vulgar Latin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Romance

    The parts of Iberia that were ruled by the moors had a very diverse population and the people were mainly christians, dominated by a muslim élite.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to aregint For This Useful Post:

    Xochi (2014-08-18)

  16. #10

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. why didn't Moors/Arabs left any genetics in Spain?
    By pakistani in forum General Genetics Discussion
    Replies: 379
    Last Post: 2016-03-02, 20:00
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 2016-01-11, 05:06
  3. Classify this Spanish guys/Spaniards
    By Martinv90 in forum Classification Requests
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 2012-03-21, 00:34
  4. Who were the Moors in Spain? I'm confused about this.
    By Austin in forum Race & Ethnicity in Society
    Replies: 81
    Last Post: 2011-11-21, 08:40
  5. Conquered by Spain: a plus or a liability?
    By pinguin in forum History
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 2010-05-04, 22:03

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<