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Thread: Complete demolition of Arch Hades using old anthropology9 days old

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    Default Complete demolition of Arch Hades using old anthropology

    Since these fools love using data from old anthropology books, I will use that same data to refute them, given what we now know today. We'll start with Type B Mesolithic Northwest African crania:


    Type A Face: Short and broad, with fairly high orbits, a markedly broad nose, and a distinct prognathous tendency

    (Note: No females of this type were identified.)


    Type B Face: Long, and narrow and slightly prognathous, but relatively shorter and broader in females. Orbits are moderately high, while noses are long and narrow in males but short and often broad in females.

    Type C Face: Small and short, especially in males, with very low orbits and a rather short nose, relatively narrow in males but slightly broader in females


    Type D Face: Orthognathous and longish, especially in females, with medium orbits and relatively long nose


    L. Cabot-Briggs

    Stone Age Races of Northwest Africa

    pg 28

    This same Type B Mesolithic population is similar to Nubians, Siwa Oasis people, and NATUFIANS. More quotes from Cabot Brigg's book on who Type B Mesolithic Northwest Africans are akin to morphologically:

    The comparative table for Type B males [Table 15] shows that we are dealing with a variety that is remarkably close to the population of Lower Nubia in the late Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods( el Batrawi, '35), as it is to the much later but nearly identical population of Siwa Oasis in Ptolemaic times (Derry, '27)
    Same Type B crania are similar to a set of recent Bantu crania from Gaboon:

    In Table 16 we note the same parallels to ancient Lower Nubians that characterize Type B males, and the similarity to Derry's Siwa series is again strong, but we find also a strikingly close resemblance to a series of West African crania from Fernand Vaz in the Gaboon (Trevor, '49) This resemblance is in form rather than size, as the Gabunese series is made up of much smaller individuals, but it is still far closer than is the rather tenuous resemblance between the males of Type B and those of Fernand Vaz.

    Unfortunately the racial and cultural origins and affinities of Trevor's Fernand Vaz series are shrouded in mystery, but two of the specimens are catalogued as Fang, and the rest can hardly have come from very far away. According to Seligman ('35, p. 182) the Fang are immigrants probably from somewhere a little west of the Congo-Nile watershed, and he is inclined to consider them as of partly Hamitic origin although now much modified by mixture following their arrival on the West African coast.......... The series described by Trevor was collected presumably between 30 and 50 years after the arrival of the Fang in the Gaboon, and so we may assume that it is a relatively unadulterated sample of the original immigrant type together with perhaps, a certain proportion of the type of the older and probably Bantu inhabitants of the region.

    Now it also shows similarity to Natufians:

    The Natufian skull from Shuqbah in Palestine that was illustrated and briefly described by Keith('31, pp. 221-223) is very like some of our Type B specimens, although the mandibular angle is more open, the mandible itself less massive, and the cranial vault fuller and more rounded as viewed from the side. The orbits are slightly rounder, and the nose is broader throughout its entire length. The resemblance remains none the less impressive.
    L. Cabot-Briggs
    Stone Age Races of Northwest Africa
    pgs 61, 62

    The Natufians have that haplogroup E which does indicate a migration from Northeast Africa into the Near East. Your insistence that Natufians are 7/8ths Eurasian, and not significantly Northeast African is looking weaker and weaker. I hate using old anthropology but since a lot of you want to stay stuck on it, I'll go there.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @NonFingo , what is your take on Cabot-Brigg's data?
    Last edited by Game Theory; 2019-07-11 at 17:59.
    We Wuz Kerma Kangz delusion..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    You @beyoku @HabariTess @Roseai are the ones claiming people that have nothing to do with them.I'm a Cushitic descendant of the Sudan and an heir to all it's civilizations while you descend from Ebola stricken negroes from the Congo forest that eat albinos in order to gain superpowers lmao

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    NonFingo (2019-07-11), Truthcentric (2019-07-11), Tsarcastic (2019-07-12)

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    The obsession continues

    Mudane @Game Theory when shall we see your first West African thread?

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    @Tsarcastic do you think this type B Mesolithic Northwest African type is reminiscent of the ANA people that score closer to SSAs?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    The obsession continues

    Mudane @Game Theory when shall we see your first West African thread?
    Monkey babble on my topic with be ignored.
    We Wuz Kerma Kangz delusion..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    You @beyoku @HabariTess @Roseai are the ones claiming people that have nothing to do with them.I'm a Cushitic descendant of the Sudan and an heir to all it's civilizations while you descend from Ebola stricken negroes from the Congo forest that eat albinos in order to gain superpowers lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Theory View Post
    @NonFingo , what is your take on Cabot-Brigg's data?
    Smart move quoting those breakdowns into types and the descriptions of those types as well as their relationships to other samples.

    I still have to read that paper, but notice that the Natufian sample that is named (Shuqbah), is not the Natufian sample that was tested for aDNA. Briggs seems very clear that the affinities are specifically with the Shuqbah Natufians, not (necessarily) with all other Natufians. Yet @Arch Hades insists all Natufian aDNA is going to be the same and that it doesn't matter which sample is tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Smart move quoting those breakdowns into types and the descriptions of those types as well as their relationships to other samples.

    I still have to read that paper, but notice that the Natufian sample that is named (Shuqbah), is not the Natufian sample that was tested for aDNA. Briggs seems very clear that the affinities are specifically with the Shuqbah Natufians, not (necessarily) with all other Natufians. Yet @Arch Hades insists all Natufian aDNA is going to be the same and that it doesn't matter which sample is tested.
    Notice, they said that skull was resembled Lower Nubians, and a small set of skulls in Gabon, but more importantly Lower Nubians. It's kind of hard for him to argue against Natufians Northeast African ancestry. It lends some support, along with E1b1b, that NE Africans migrated out and carried some low level SSA ancestry.
    We Wuz Kerma Kangz delusion..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    You @beyoku @HabariTess @Roseai are the ones claiming people that have nothing to do with them.I'm a Cushitic descendant of the Sudan and an heir to all it's civilizations while you descend from Ebola stricken negroes from the Congo forest that eat albinos in order to gain superpowers lmao

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    I would love to see aDNA from these Shuqbah Natufians. And then compare them with the Taforalt and IAM (aka early Neolithic Moroccan) aDNA samples. My hunch is that the latter two samples will show even more overlap with Shuqbah than the other Natufians that were sampled.

    That said, I don't know if I would consider Taforalt and IAM "pure" Native North African. IIRC, Lazaridis were modeled as almost evenly split between ANA and Dzudzuana-like ancestry---the latter itself substantially admixed with "Basal Eurasian". The hunch I have right now is that "Basal Eurasian" itself could really be an eastern cousin of ANA, possibly originating in the eastern Sahara whereas ANA originated in the west (which would not necessarily negate travel and admixture between them within prehistoric North Africa). But that still leaves us with a chunk of what could actually be Eurasian ancestry in Taforalt and IAM. Maybe they really do have some WHG admixture from Iberia after all?
    Knowledge is consciousness of reality. Reality is the sum of the laws that govern nature and of the causes from which they flow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    I would love to see aDNA from these Shuqbah Natufians. And then compare them with the Taforalt and IAM (aka early Neolithic Moroccan) aDNA samples. My hunch is that the latter two samples will show even more overlap with Shuqbah than the other Natufians that were sampled.

    That said, I don't know if I would consider Taforalt and IAM "pure" Native North African. IIRC, Lazaridis were modeled as almost evenly split between ANA and Dzudzuana-like ancestry---the latter itself substantially admixed with "Basal Eurasian". The hunch I have right now is that "Basal Eurasian" itself could really be an eastern cousin of ANA, possibly originating in the eastern Sahara whereas ANA originated in the west (which would not necessarily negate travel and admixture between them within prehistoric North Africa). But that still leaves us with a chunk of what could actually be Eurasian ancestry in Taforalt and IAM. Maybe they really do have some WHG admixture from Iberia after all?
    No, Basal Eurasian is a closer cousin of Crown Eurasian, not Ancestral North African. Lazaridis 2018 even mentions there was multiple lines of evidence it went through most the bottleneck of the Crown/Main Eurasian line. This isnt the case for Ancestral North AFrican.

    Dzudzuana is still over 70% Western Crown Eurasian btw...descending from the same phylogeny Upper Paleolithic European Hunter-Gatherers ended up sprouting from. So a large part of North African ancestry does indeed have a deep phylogenetic relationship with even Upper Paleolithic Europeans if we go back far enough.

    insists all Natufian aDNA is going to be the same and that it doesn't matter which sample is tested.
    I wouldnt say I 'insist' on anything yet proven with empirical evidence. I find it unlikely they will be very different genetically, that's all. All the ancient DNA groups we've gotten so far shows little diversity in Hunter Gatherer groups from the same area, timespan, and culture.

    High metrical variability always will exist in populations. Just look what old typologists could do with the Ancient Egyptians. Some were classified as "Nordic", some as "Negroid".

    http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...8;t=008354;p=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    No, Basal Eurasian is a closer cousin of Crown Eurasian, not Ancestral North African. Lazaridis 2018 even mentions there was multiple lines of evidence it went through most the bottleneck of the Crown/Main Eurasian line. This isnt the case for Ancestral North AFrican.
    Where does Lazaridis actually say that in the Dzudzuana paper? Because I went through his .pdf and he says nothing about "Basal Eurasian" having undergone the same genetic bottleneck as Crown/Main Eurasian. I can't even find the word "bottleneck" within the .pdf through Ctrl + F. Are you thinking of another paper, or are you acting like another typical racialist and pulling shit out of your ass again?

    EDIT: NM, it was in the supplementary .pdf. I will go over it and get back to you.
    Last edited by Truthcentric; 2019-07-11 at 22:58.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    Where does Lazaridis actually say that in the Dzudzuana paper? Because I went through his .pdf and he says nothing about "Basal Eurasian" having undergone the same genetic bottleneck as Crown/Main Eurasian. I can't even find the word "bottleneck" within the .pdf through Ctrl + F. Are you thinking of another paper, or are you acting like another typical racialist and pulling shit out of your ass again?

    EDIT: NM, it was in the supplementary .pdf. I will go over it and get back to you.
    Right.

    "The fact that the genetic drift before and after the Basal Eurasian split is estimated similarly by theadmixture graph model of Fig. 2 (which uses no archaic samples or Chimp) and Extended Data Fig. 868 (which uses archaic ancestry estimated using Altai, Chimp, and Denisova as outgroups) provides two independent lines of evidence for our estimates of these quantities, suggesting that ~2/3 of the drift since the split from East Africans is shared by Basal Eurasians and an additional ~1/3 is shared by non-Basal Eurasian non-Africans. This suggests that the Basal Eurasians (so named because they occupy a basal position in the phylogeny of Eurasians10) did in fact experience most of the common bottleneck shared by Eurasians. (Note also, that if we used the lower (1.6%) estimate of absolute Neandertal ancestry in Ust’Ishim from the f4-ratio, this would imply even more shared genetic drift between Basal Eurasians and other non-Africans, since then f4(Deep, Tianyuan; Ust’Ishim, Chimp)=-0.016*0.436 ≈-0.007.) The other “Deep” lineage found in Taforalt (Fig. 2) experienced only 0.008 units of genetic drift with non-Africans (Fig. 2) and could be plausibly interpreted as having deep presence in (North) Africa. Note that Taforalt and the Neolithic of the Maghreb are well below the regression line (Extended Data Fig. 8) and thus lack more genetic drift with Ust’Ishim than is predicted by their level of archaic ancestry; this is expected if they trace their ancestry from a lineage that is even more deeply diverged than the Basal Eurasians."


    As for Basal Eurasian and 'racialist interpretations'. Well i'm actually much more interested what type of ecological environment it spent the majority of it's time evolving in. It looks to be the Middle East/Arabian Peninsula/Fertile Crescent region.

    I don't know how long it took the earliest homo sapiens whom left SSA to lose their tropical adaptation (arent the earliest Europeans still tropically adapted?) but i believe in Basal Eurasian line will be amoungst the first, along with Crown Eurasian line whom migrated Northward.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-07-12 at 01:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Theory View Post
    @Tsarcastic do you think this type B Mesolithic Northwest African type is reminiscent of the ANA people that score closer to SSAs?
    Type B stone age nw africans are related to late iberomaurusian/early capsian cultures; the cranial remains came from dig sites in aïoun-berich (Algeria) and khanguet el-mouhaad (Tunisia).

    They definitely would have carried signals of the deep lineage detected in the taforalt remains (Morocco). The fact that certain members aren't peeping how much drift that deep lineage (i.e., "ana") shares w/ a 4500 yr/o east african remain is head scratching (especially when you consider how long they have perused these boards); it's frankly a dead give away. But imo, the ancient aboriginals wouldn't have looked like either of the iberomaurusian or mechta-afalou cultures. Too much (female-mediated) eurasian admixture by the terminal pleistocene (resulting in altogether novel phenotypes).

    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    The hunch I have right now is that "Basal Eurasian" itself could really be an eastern cousin of ANA, possibly originating in the eastern Sahara whereas ANA originated in the west (which would not necessarily negate travel and admixture between them within prehistoric North Africa). But that still leaves us with a chunk of what could actually be Eurasian ancestry in Taforalt and IAM. Maybe they really do have some WHG admixture from Iberia after all?
    The taforalt remains carried putatively "northern african" markers, markers that have a putative origin in northeast Africa, but the aboriginal bearers of "ana" originated in the western sahara???
    Last edited by Tsarcastic; 2019-07-12 at 03:25.

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