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Thread: Khanty people3628 days old

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    Default Khanty people

    These are photos of Khanty-speaking people, taken during my trip in Russia this summer. I have not seen anywhere else so great phenotype variance within one ethnicity. People range from purely Europid looking to purely Mongoloid looking, besides that last ones can be either "East Asian" or "Amerindian" looking. At least half of Khanty people have fair pigmentation, and part of them look like perfect "blonde chinese" examples.

















    Last edited by Evi; 2009-11-13 at 10:33.

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    They look slightly less Europid than Maris. But on the whole they are almost identical.

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    Some of them look japanese!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    She an Ob Khanty, which is from Northern Khanty groups. I noticed that blonde hair and light eyes are more often attributed to Northern Khanty than to Eastern Khanty (my mother's group).

    More photos of her, I'd be happy if you'd classify her:







    Here is one other example of Northern Khanty:



    This guy is Northern Khanty:



    These guys are Eastern Khanty, but they belong to different phenotypes. The guy in the left has light hair and light eyes, my mother and othern Khanty woman said each to other that he looks stereotypically "Northern Khanty":



    Eastern Khanty groups seemingly have more Mongoloid admixture, and this kind of look is stereotypically "Eastern Khanty":



    It doesn't mean though that Eastern Khanty never have lighter pigmentation or something like that. This woman is Eastern Khanty:



    But talk is more about the stereotypes. Light hair and eyes are more prevalent among the Northern Khanty, thus such traits are more tied to this certain ethnic group. At least Khanty themselves have been telling me such things.

    These are average Eastern Khanty, you can see the variety of pigmentation and facial traits among them:



    It's important to understand, that:
    1. different Khanty groups live very far away each from other, distances are measured in hundreds of km's
    2. the Northern Khanty dialect is so different from Eastern Khanty dialect, that they are considered as different languages. But for historial reasons they are still named under same name "Khanty".
    Last edited by Evi; 2010-01-06 at 09:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    He looks a bit like George W. Bush?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    These are photos of Khanty-speaking people, taken during my trip in Russia this summer...
    .. never asking who these people are and never asking whether they are mixed with Russions and/or Komi or not. Neverthelesse the pictures show at least an Asian people unrelated to Europeans. Continue at http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1938
    Last edited by David Noi; 2010-01-06 at 12:54.

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    I was quite surprised when I read that the Khanty population is a little over 28k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Noi View Post
    .. never asking who these people are and never asking whether they are mixed with Russions and/or Komi or not. Neverthelesse the pictures show at least an Asian people unrelated to Europeans. Continue at http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1938
    I was asking several of them, particulary the blonde ones, and they denied the Russian ancestry (one of them revealed some Komi ancestor, though). Lots of these people have Khanty language as native language and Russian language being an foreign one (and they spoke in Russian with bigger or lesser accent).

    Look at this woman, she, despite having light pigmentation, was super-duper Khanty from hair roots to toes in all senses.



    She spoke in Russian language with difficulties (and I have videos recorded of her talking in Russian language, so I have proof; maybe I'll show one of them some day, but I don't know how to work with videos, so they are still just on my computer, I don't know how to upload them etc.)

    She is a recognised master (she has name "Narodnyj master Rossii" or "National Master of Russia") in sewing traditional Khanty clothes.

    She has a Khanty way of thinking, and I had to follow her rules when visiting at her home (I, being an female, should not sit on male side of house or sofa; I should not be sleeping in one or other position; I should not walk behind the house etc.). She was among the strictiest and most traditional-thinking Khanty persons I met in Siberia.

    I asked her origins, and she said, that she is entirely Khanty. No Russians or whatsoever in her ancestral line. Besides that, she is distant relative to my mother.

    But I think the thing that she is unmixed is entirely clear already from her behaviour and language skills. Mixed Khanty, according to what my mother has told me, usually change the sets of rules and behaviour in European way (they allow for women to walk behind the houses, they are not strict about sitting or sleeping rules etc.), they are usually fluent in Russian language (unlike this woman) etc.

    ---------- Post added 2010-01-06 at 17:32 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by David Noi View Post
    By the way, this text is just wrong: Primitive looking with a proto or undifferentiated quality in this exprssion, alveolar prognathism, rugged zygomata with the associated horizontal splay.



    Because, this "primitive looking", "alveolar prognatism" is caused by chewing tobacco! Khanty (even not so long time ago) had widespread tradition to put tobacco behind their lips, and chew it. Constant chewing of tobacco, which is behind the lips, of course causes "prognatism" which is, besides, "extreme" one. In reality, Khanty do usually have prognatism, but in much milder version. BTW nowdays Khanty dont chew tobacco aymore, at least not often, so you won't see such kind of "prognatism" anymore.
    Last edited by Evi; 2010-01-06 at 15:35.

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    Are there any data of haplogroups each northern and eastern Khanties?

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    BTW it is interesting to see that random old photos of Khanty from private collections are bit different than old photos of Khanty in some published works. I remember somebody saying about Saami old photos in anthropological works, that they are biased. I believe this in case of Khanty too: researchers were interested just in most "exotic" examples. And light-pigmented Khanty individuals in such works were labelled as "most likely having Komi or Russian blood" (hmm, on what the researchers based such claims?) I can name at least one researcher who claimed so: it was Sirelius.

    Well, here are random old photos from private collections. Here Khanty "suddenly" have more light-pigmented individuals, and some more "Europid looking" individuals. Hmm, why so?








    Of course, there are also more Mongoloid looking Khanty than I posted above:



    ---------- Post added 2010-01-06 at 18:08 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by umit View Post
    Are there any data of haplogroups each northern and eastern Khanties?
    No, I don't have. I'd like to see them myself.
    Last edited by Evi; 2010-01-06 at 16:09.

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