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Thread: Uralic adventures3394 days old

  1. #111
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    Evolutionary Biologist Põhjamaalane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cromagnorse View Post
    The Anatolian hypothesis (the idea that Indo-European languages spread with the first MENA agriculturalists in Europe) has been strongly questioned for decades on linguistic grounds:


    "How can the homeland be situated in the Mediterranean or the
    Near East if we cannot reconstruct to Proto-Indo-European words for oil,
    olives, grapes, the ass, or many other environmental terms typical for this
    region? While the absence of a single word can be set aside as a matter of chance,
    can the absence of an entire series of words relating to a specific environment be
    so quickly dismissed?"
    -J.P. Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, 1991

    Modern genetics research has put the final nail into the Anatolian coffin, as Haak et al. 2015 has confirmed that not only was there another large genetic migration into the rest of Europe several thousands of years AFTER the arrival woggy farmers from Anatolia, but also that the people of this later migration became very dominant and that they to a very large extent changed the genetics of Europe forever:

    Wolfgang Haak et al., 2015: "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe"

    The Kurgan hypothesis is now supported by the three disciplines of linguistics, archaeology and genetics. Check mate.



    Not only is this not true, as I've shown in this post (see more below), but funny enough, it is instead true for most western FUs such as Finns and Estonians. Finno-Ugric Y-DNA is mostly N1c (a sister haplogroup of East Asian haplogroup O), but your direct patrilinear ancestors continuously mixed with the locals during their long trek from Eastern Asia into North-Eastern Europe. If they hadn't then you'd be full-blooded East Asian Y-DNA NO peoples in terms of autosomal DNA.


    This is absolutely pseudoscientific bullshit. According to Haak et al. 2015, Scandinavians (closely followed by Balts, including language-shifted Estonians) are the MOST Indo-European of all genetically:





    Actually, the perpetually low population density in Scandinavia and the Baltic region seems to have allowed the invading Corded Ware Indo-Europeans to spread their genes even MORE effectively than in more southern parts of Europe, as seen in the above diagram from Haak et al. 2015. Even the relatively protected Belarusians are somewhat less Indo-European than Norwegians and Estonians, despite being MUCH closer to the PIE homeland. This effect can also be seen when comparing the Indo-Europeanness of the large English population vs the smaller and more Indo-European Scottish population. Your argument is false and like the rest of your post, you do not have any sources what so ever to back it up with, only wishful thinking.

    So yeah, Estonians are language-shifted "steppe niggers" as I believe you called our mutual closest ancestors (both patrilinearly and autosomally speaking) a couple of years ago. Steppe "niggers" who invented the wheel, invented the chariot, tamed the horse and came to dominate the world, including Estonia, from ca 3000 B.C. until today.

    Seriously, get with the times. Are you e-stonian or just f-ing stoned, mate?
    Your "metaethnos" is "Aryan" as you have written on your profile. Of course you think the way you do. Doesn't matter if IEs came from Central-Asia or Anatolia, they didn't look anything like modern-day blond Northern-Europeans, the time they reached this part of Europe, their blood was already so diluted that it didn't play much role and cultural diffusion was the main thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Many folks in new nations such as Estonia, Ukraine, Belarus often try to prove their origins to the land since the dawn of times ignoring relevant and upto date research studies. It's important for them to know they have established cultures and nations after living in political shadows of other states for a long time.

    One won't see see something like this among Germans, Swedes, Russians, English, French, Italians.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Norwegians have around 25% of R1a-Z284 in the population. It's a little short for eastern European populations such as Estonia. But higher in comparison to other western and northern Europeans.
    New nations?

    http://nvl.org/content/Article/5752/...ople-In-Europe

    Belarus is a new nation, where most people are not even Belarussian, but they are just Russians, like you. I know some real Belarussians who speak proper Belarussian and don't identify as Russian like you do.

    Estonia is not comparable to something like Belarus.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Our stubborn friend, literally "bullheaded", as proudly stated by himself, seems actually to be of R1a1 origin, R then being a sister clade of Q. Scandinavians are in many cases I's, not really an PIE male line and very PIE Latvians and Lithuanians are in many cases N's. So, I wouldn't rely too much on uniparental lines in terms of defining who's most PIE nowadays. Otherwise, very much agreed.
    How much does Y-DNA and such make of a person's genetic profile? Less than 0.1%. People who identify with 0.1% of their genes have identity issues and their just daft.
    Comedian of the year 2010 award goes to...


    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Indo-Europeans were in Finland long before the Uralics got there.

    Comedian of the year 2011 award goes to...


    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Indo-Europeans were in Estonia before Uralics.

    Comedian of the year 2012 award goes to...


    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    you look very Eastern European

    Troll of the year 2012 award goes to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    Roughly saying, Estonians are half-Latvians and half-Finns.

    Troll of the year 2016 award goes to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Estonians are more similar to Russians than Belarusians to Russians.

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  3. #112
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    Among others, the Finnic mythological
    name Kalev/Kaleva was most likely borrowed in the context of
    mixed communities in Baltic–Finnic fortified settlements; the source of
    this derivation was most likely Baltic kalvis/kalējs – a bronzesmith and
    chief at that time.
    For me this suggestion that the Finnish mythological name "Kalewala" is related to the familiar Polish word "kowal" meaning "smith" via borrowing from Baltic "kalvis" is very interesting.

    So "Kalewala" simply means "the land of Kowalskis":





    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit
    It'd be interesting to know etymology of ratas in Lithuanian. It maybe a Latin loan-word. Proto-Slavic *kolo is derived from Indo-European *kʷekʷlom ‎("circle"), *kʷékʷlos ‎("circle").
    I have always though that "rata"/"ratas" is a corrupted form of Polish/Slavic "wraca" ("it comes back"/"it returns")/"wracać"(to come back/to return), as it is the simplest way of describing what "wheel"/"circle" actually does.

    My favourite Polish/Slavic word is "kołowrót" (meaning "wheel and axle") which unites these two roots related to wheel: "koło" and "(w)rata(ć)" ("kołowrót" - "something what returns in circle"):



    This Slavic symbol is called "kołowrót/kolovrat":






    I wonder if the use of wheel in "wheel and axle" (simple machine) is older than the use of wheel in transport or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The earliest well-dated depiction of a wheeled vehicle (a wagon—four wheels, two axles) is on the Bronocice pot, a ca. 3635–3370 BCE ceramic vase, excavated in a Funnelbeaker culture settlement in southern Poland.[5]

    The oldest known example of a wooden wheel and its axle was found in 2002 at the Ljubljana Marshes some 20 km south of Ljubljana, the capital of Slovenia. According to radiocarbon dating, it is between 5,100 and 5,350 years old. The wheel was made of ash and oak and had a radius of 70 cm and the axle is 120 cm long and made of oak.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-09-21 at 08:44.

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  5. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Põhjamaalane View Post
    Belarus is a new nation, where most people are not even Belarussian, but they are just Russians, like you. I know some real Belarussians who speak proper Belarussian and don't identify as Russian like you do.

    Estonia is not comparable to something like Belarus.
    Yes, Belarus, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia are new nations. There were not such nations prior to 1918 or 1991.

    Territories of present day Estonia has been in the dominion of Russia longer than those of Belarus. Estonia was part of the Russian empire since 1721, while Belarus together with Lithuania were incorporated into Russia in 1795. Even until early 20th century most Belarusians weren't identifying themselves as Belarusians. Ethnic terms such as Belarusian, Ukrainian, Azerbaijani are recent inventions. It's for this reason many Belarusians dislike the ethnic term saying their ancestors never identified themselves as such. Russians and Belarusians are two different ethnicities with different histories, ethnographies, anthropologies. Estonians are more similar to Russians than Belarusians to Russians. You have more Russians living in Estonia than we have. And every Estonian has a some Russian relative in his or her extended family. Probably, you have Russian relatives too. Cause you sound and behave as a very typical eastern European. If I didn't know you are Estonian I would have assumed you are Russian or Moldavian.
    Last edited by Rugevit; 2016-09-21 at 08:28.

  6. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    This is rubbish. Baltic Finnic is an outcome of a Bronze Age-early Iron Age expansion from the Volga-Oka area to the Baltic area. Check the latest work of Valter Lang, if not anything else, regarding the matter.
    This is total rubbish. Baltic Finns are genetically closer European IE-speakers than people from the Volga-Oka region, this is true despite of the Slavic migration to the same region. Another question is who are language shifters, but probably we have no answers yet.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

  7. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    My favourite Polish/Slavic word is "kołowrót" (meaning "wheel and axle") which unites these two roots related to wheel: "koło" and "(w)rata(ć)" ("kołowrót" - "something what returns in a circle"):
    Interesting observation. East Slavic languages have a feature known as 'polnoglasie' which is missing in western and southern Slavic languages.

    breg -bereg
    mleko - moloko
    vrag - vorog
    vrot -vorot
    vrata -vorota

    vorota is derived from proto-Slavic *vorta, which is in turn derived from Indo-European *wert-: *wort- : *wrt- - to rotate.

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  9. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Põhjamaalane View Post
    Your "metaethnos" is "Aryan" as you have written on your profile. Of course you think the way you do. Doesn't matter if IEs came from Central-Asia or Anatolia, they didn't look anything like modern-day blond Northern-Europeans, the time they reached this part of Europe, their blood was already so diluted that it didn't play much role and cultural diffusion was the main thing.
    True, North Europeans show highest amount of WHG, especially Estonians and Latvians. Quoting Haak we can say that IE-speakers mixed with older Europeans, not conversely. Yamnayas were already mixed with EHG and were not the IE-root. For that reason the admixture statistics gives a misleading picture. Btw, EHG was only a branch of WHG.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

  10. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Ring is in Finnish "rengas", which sounds as an old Germanic loan word.
    It probably comes from Polish/Slavic word "krąg" (meaning "ring") associated with the verb "krążyć" ("to circle around") and found is such words as "widnokrąg" ("the ring around to which one can see anything" - horizon) or "okrągły" (meaning "round in shape").
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-09-21 at 08:54.

  11. #118
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    Proto-Indo-European is *krengh. Proto-Slavic is *krǭgъ. It's a cognate with Germanic hringr, hring, ring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    This is total rubbish. Baltic Finns are genetically closer European IE-speakers than people from the Volga-Oka region, this is true despite of the Slavic migration to the same region. Another question is who are language shifters, but probably we have no answers yet.
    If we get people of Volga mix with say Latvians intensively on their road and then also some Swedes - would result differ much from Estonians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Proto-Indo-European is *krengh. Proto-Slavic is *krǭgъ. It's a cognate with Germanic hringr, hring, ring.
    I have no idea about linguistics, but I would say that it is a cognate if it is as productive in Germanic as it is in Slavic. Otherwise it is a borrowing.

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