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View Poll Results: Is Central-Eastern Europe the proto-Indo-European urheimat?

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  • Yes, PIE urheimat is in, around or close to Poland (Corded Ware culture)

    15 17.65%
  • Yes, PIE urheimat is somewhere in the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Yamnaya horizon; Pit Grave culture)

    38 44.71%
  • No, I favour the Anatolian/Armenian/Balkan/Glottalic etc. hypothesis

    32 37.65%
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Thread: Is Central-Eastern Europe the proto-Indo-European urheimat? [split] //mod2794 days old

  1. #761
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    Molecular Biologist Alaron's Avatar
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    Origin of PIE is probably the Pontic-Caspian steppes.



    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.



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    ^

    Note that the traditional Kurgan hypothesis is far from perfect.

    The main problem is that the reconstructed late PIE flora and fauna is simply NOT of the steppe type. Neither oak, nor hornbeam, nor pine, nor beech normally grow in the Ponto-Caspian steppes, in fact, they grow anywhere except this region. And if the steppes had been covered by light woods in the past, the existing conditions might not have been suitable for domestication of horses. The late PIE wild life must have been of a mixed type consisting of many varieties of trees and animals, with sufficient meadows for pasturing horses, sheep and cattle, and this kind of environment is typically found in mountainous and coastal regions.


    "Indo-European Origins and Geography"



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    ^All of those maps overlap with Yamna and Sredny stog culture horizon territories. There's also the steppes and forrest steppes. Forrest steppes, indeed would have had ample resources of lumber and forrest steppes is just slightly to the north of the Pontic-Caspian steppes. So its not unlikely that people slightly further south of the forrest steppes would have been completely unaware of such resources. Peoples lives at c. 4000-3000 BC are not entirely disconnected from other's just some relatively slight distance away.

    Also, I can't tell if the cartographer was having a scaling issue or not when making these blob maps, but some of the boundaries for the tree types actually does fall on the Ponitc-Caspian steppes. Not the best maps in the world. This is probably one of the better, if not more accurate maps representing the Eurasian steppe belt below:

    Last edited by geomattica; 2012-08-01 at 13:33.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    True dat

    OT-split here.

    //mod
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-08-01 at 15:28.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries



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    A rough, rather approximate representation of the Pontic Caspian steppes in terms of boubdary but one that is more explicit then some of the other representations:




    Note its proximity to forrested regions but also mountain ranges as can be seen from the topography.



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    ....



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    too much conjecture goes into this bullshit discussion. It just get's really old and boring.

    It's uncertain



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    ^There's BS/conjecture in any conversation on this board! I thought it was plainly evident by now. At least this isn't another one of the frequent whiney black person threads popping up these days or "who are the Jew's, where are they from? we don't have an f'n clue!." There are a plenty of spreadsheets regarding Jewish admixture results and historical records of Jews since 1500 BC yet everyone still acts clueless on that issue or tries to argue for something ridiculous like Jews being 100% Euro or 100% ME. Whatev....

    Anyway, @ Wojewda thanks for posting Janos Makkay's perspective on PIE. His stance is for the LBK as the PIE homeland or where it developed. This would fall more in line w/ the agricultural wave of advance theory or IE spreads w/ agriculture from out of Anatolian.

    I think that position is stronger then Paleolithic continuance from C. Europe though it seems that based on what we know now about LBK from aDNA, people could have spoken a language more like those of present day Near East or Caucases since some of the Y-DNA and mtDNA HG results of LBK people are more like people from said areas.

    Perhaps the time of LBK explains better why language isolates like Etruscan or even Basque exist(ed). Both are aggluntative languages which are more characteristic of the Caucases. Present day Tuscan towns near ancient Etruscan settlements have a higher than average frequency of Y-DNA G and the Basque have it among them too though far lower than R1b. The aDNA of LBK males was predominantly Y-DNA G if I recall correctly so far.

    Just one way of looking at the LBK.



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    Exactly! late sixth, fifth, and fourth millennia b.c.
    It is
    2.Pre-Sesklo -> 3.Linear Pottery
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eu..._Neolithic.gif

    Linear Pottery G2a3 + F*(XIJ, G, K, H) (late sixth, fifth, and fourth millennia b.c.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post


    ....
    it is the territory of the Linear Pottery culture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    Exactly! late sixth, fifth, and fourth millennia b.c.
    It is
    2.Pre-Sesklo -> 3.Linear Pottery
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eu..._Neolithic.gif

    Linear Pottery G2a3 + F*(XIJ, G, K, H) (late sixth, fifth, and fourth millennia b.c.)
    The problem I see with that, is if you argue for LBK as PIE and given its relation to Pre-Sesklo, you are in essence saying PIE is really Anatolian rather than C. European. It would be the same really if one considers TRB as PIE or even its successor GAC since GAC is essentially a continuation of the TRB population.

    Or

    More in line w/ Renfrew's stance these days, Anatolia witnessed pre-PIE and than C. Europe is where developled PIE proper. He often uses this logic to explain the peculiarity of Hittite and the other Anatolian IE languages.

    I think David Anthony's explanation of Hittite/Anatolian IE in relation to PIE actually makes more sense though. It would have seperated earlier then all other PIE hence some of its rather unique IE features and why its actually 50% non-IE. He cites some interesting archaeology as a potential match for a group that split from the Pontic-Caspian steppes very early on.



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