User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: S116/P312 not so much Bell Beaker perhaps Linearbandkeramik?3005 days old

  1. #1
    Established Member
    puttin' in yer windies
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    1,567
    Gender
    Age
    28
    Y-DNA
    R-DF99
    mtDNA
    H3ap

    Default S116/P312 not so much Bell Beaker perhaps Linearbandkeramik?

    I was over at Family Tree DNA Forums and a fellow posted this:

    European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 25 August 2010; doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.146

    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    Natalie M Myres et al.

    The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

    Here, we present phylogeographically resolved data for 2043 M269-derived Y-chromosomes from 118 West Asian and European populations assessed for the M412 SNP that largely separates the majority of Central and West European R1b lineages from those observed in Eastern Europe, the Circum-Uralic region, the Near East, the Caucasus and Pakistan.

    Within the M412 dichotomy, the major S116 [P312] sub-clade shows a frequency peak in the upper Danube basin and Paris area with declining frequency toward Italy, Iberia, Southern France and British Isles.

    Although this frequency pattern closely approximates the spread of the Linearbandkeramik (LBK), Neolithic culture, an advent leading to a number of pre-historic cultural developments during the past ≤10 thousand years, more complex pre-Neolithic scenarios remain possible for the L23(xM412) components in Southeast Europe and elsewhere.
    I found the decline towards Britain interesting, some had speculated that the British were over represented in the past due to the higher volume of British background folks testing.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cadwallon For This Useful Post:

    Semitic Duwa (2010-08-26), Ubirajara (2010-08-26)

  3. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Age
    2010
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  4. #2
    Wiki Editor
    Moderator
    Your favourite (((Skype))) Semitic Duwa's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-02-26
    Posts
    3,411
    Location
    In your closet
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    J1-Z18271 (YSC234+)
    mtDNA
    J1c5
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Metaethnos
    (((Skype))) + British
    Ethnicity
    (((Canaanite)))
    Politics
    Pump & Trump
    Religion
    Jehovah's Fitness
    Israel Israel Star of David Israel Israel

    Default

    Hmmm, well here are more quotes from the same study about M207... I suggest you take it with a grain of salt:

    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe. Here, we present phylogeographically resolved data for 2043 M269-derived Y-chromosomes from 118 West Asian and European populations assessed for the M412 SNP that largely separates the majority of Central and West European R1b lineages from those observed in Eastern Europe, the Circum-Uralic region, the Near East, the Caucasus and Pakistan. Within the M412 dichotomy, the major S116 sub-clade shows a frequency peak in the upper Danube basin and Paris area with declining frequency toward Italy, Iberia, Southern France and British Isles. Although this frequency pattern closely approximates the spread of the Linearbandkeramik (LBK), Neolithic culture, an advent leading to a number of pre-historic cultural developments during the past ≤10 thousand years, more complex pre-Neolithic scenarios remain possible for the L23(xM412) components in Southeast Europe and elsewhere.

    The coalescent estimate for the Y-STR network tree of 245 M269*+L23(xM412) chromosomes is
    10 270±1680 years Before Present (BP). This estimate approximates
    the median TMRCA dates (8.5–12.5k years) of M269 clade across
    Europe based on alternative demographic inference methodology.33
    Our estimate of 8870±1708 years BP, based on 757 M412 chromosomes,
    suggests that theM412 lineage evolved in Europe soon after the
    arrival of a L23* ancestor. The coalescent times for 11 sub-haplogroups
    averaged across populations in which the sample size was
    5 are presented in Supplementary Table S2. Notable are the equivalent
    expansion times for all S116 (n¼481), Td¼8630±1529 years BP and
    U106 (n¼239), Td 8742±1551 years BP-related lineages.
    Archeologically, there are two attested phases regarding the geographic
    spread of the Linearbandkeramik (LBK). The first phase
    extended to the upper Danube river near Munich. The second
    phase extended further to the Paris basin.34 Furthermore, there is
    evidence of several post-LBK Neolithic expansions, ca 6000 years BP
    from the Paris basin region toward Northern Italy, Southern France
    and Iberia, characterized by the Chasseen horizon,35,36 as well as to
    England.37 We examined the geographic regional patterns of S116,
    U106, U152 and M529 haplogroups more quantitatively within
    particular distance classes by spatial autocorrelation analysis. All
    these four sub-clades displayed clinal distributions of frequency
    variation (Supplementary Figure 1).

    We conducted principal components analysis to investigate affinities
    of haplogroup R1b fractions among different populations based
    on the frequency distributions of M269*, L23, M412*, L11*, U106,
    S116*, U152 and M529 with respect to total M269. Figure 3a shows
    the contributions of the sub-haplogroups to the first two principal
    components. The first principal component separates L23 from M412
    and its sub-clades, whereas the second differentiates the sub-haplogroups
    within M412. Figure 3b shows Western Europeans clustering
    in an approximately congruent manner with geography (according to
    the frequencies of M412 sub-clades) on the left, with Central and
    Eastern Europeans in the middle and a group of populations from the
    Balkans, Turkey, the Caucasus and the Circum-Uralic region on the
    right, separated by a high frequency of L23.


    Discussion:
    The enhanced resolution of M412-related lineages
    permits a finer-grained view of the proposal that R1b-M269 coincides
    with the arrival and spread of farming into Europe. A recent analysis
    of 9 Y-STR loci associated with 840 R1b chromosomes resolved just to
    the level of M269 concluded that all such chromosomes in Europe
    reflect a recent genetic heritage that was uniformly introduced by
    exogenous farmers migrating from Western Anatolia.23 Our high
    resolution SNP genotype results show that the majority of Central and
    Western European haplogroups relate to common M412 founders
    whose sub-clades display phylogeographic and temporal patterns
    consistent with allele surfing at the periphery of expansions.40,41
    Opportunities for the establishment of new varieties on a regional
    basis would be enhanced if preexisting population densities were not excessive.
    Estimates of population densities in the early Neolithic
    suggest that they were low, 0.6 per square kilometer.42 Such low
    population densities would have helped to promote founder effects
    such as those seen for the more prominent L11-related, S116 (Figure 1j)
    and U106 (Figure 1i) components and their respective sub-haplogroups.
    This is shown in part as the inversely related decreasing
    expansion times of S116-related haplogroups with increased distance
    from high-diversity areas coincident with the establishment of the early
    Danubian Neolithic LBK horizon in Europe (Figure 2a and b).
    Our results implicate complexity in the post-glacial formation and
    expansion of populations in Europe during the past ca 10 000 years.
    The narrow temporal window between potential expansions by
    Mesolithic foragers at the onset of the Holocene (10k years ago)
    and pioneer farmers from the Near East during the early Neolithic into
    Central Europe (7.5k years ago) is exceedingly difficult to discern with
    genetic tools.22 Thus, invoking the pronounced transformation of the
    pre-Neolithic European gene pool by intrusive pioneer farmers from
    the Near East must be viewed cautiously especially when such an
    argument is based on just a single incompletely resolved haplogroup.

    However, the magnitude of
    such putative commodity-driven gene flows remains uncertain
    until direct evidence from ancient DNA is provided in combination
    with potentially even more high-resolution and informative subhaplogroup
    fractions relevant to particular trade routes or cultural
    horizons are detected and used to test hypotheses concerning
    post-Neolithic histories.
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Semitic Duwa For This Useful Post:

    cadwallon (2010-08-26), Ubirajara (2010-08-26)

  6. #3
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 00:08
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    6,468
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    And some pictures.

    EDIT. Either I am reading these map incorrectly, but it seems to me that someone has taken these poeple from the Kazachstan and paruchuted them somewhere in the triangle Spain-British Isles-Netherlands.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	R1.png 
Views:	31 
Size:	24.7 KB 
ID:	21056   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	R2.png 
Views:	35 
Size:	408.9 KB 
ID:	21057   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	R3.png 
Views:	31 
Size:	534.8 KB 
ID:	21058  
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2010-08-26 at 13:24.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Wojewoda For This Useful Post:

    cadwallon (2010-08-26), Semitic Duwa (2010-08-26)

  8. #4
    Established Member
    puttin' in yer windies
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    1,567
    Gender
    Age
    28
    Y-DNA
    R-DF99
    mtDNA
    H3ap

    Default

    I am curious what ya'll think in regards to who is responsible for the spread of S116/P312. The whole flip flopping done by those who make these papers and such gets old when one is trying to pin something like this down. I don't know what to believe anymore.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to cadwallon For This Useful Post:

    Semitic Duwa (2010-08-26)

  10. #5
    Established Member
    puttin' in yer windies
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    1,567
    Gender
    Age
    28
    Y-DNA
    R-DF99
    mtDNA
    H3ap

    Default

    What I don't get about this study is R S116 everywhere else I've seen has been placed around 2490 BC, the Linear Pottery Culture is from 5500–4500 BC, which is closer to the age estimates for M269 is it not? I want to know how they get early Neolithic (and suggested pre-Neolithic) for sublcades of a late Neolithic haplogroup.

    I can see the LBK perhaps spreading M269, then the S116 descendants participating in later Bell Beaker movements.
    Last edited by cadwallon; 2010-08-26 at 17:45.

  11. #6
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 00:08
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    6,468
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cadwallon View Post
    What I don't get about this study is R S116 everywhere else I've seen has been placed around 2490 BC, the Linear Pottery Culture is from 5500–4500 BC, which is closer to the age estimates for M269 is it not? I want to know how they get early Neolithic (and suggested pre-Neolithic) for sublcades of a late Neolithic haplogroup.

    I can see the LBK perhaps spreading M269, then the S116 descendants participating in later Bell Beaker movements.
    Well this is somethink I don't understand. Absolutely nothing in these R1b1b2 maps correlate visually with the maps of the spread of LBK.

    On the other hand I can see very strong correlation with Bell Beaker culture spread:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	300px-Old_Europe.png 
Views:	39 
Size:	58.7 KB 
ID:	21097   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	500px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif 
Views:	25 
Size:	55.8 KB 
ID:	21098   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	680px-Neolithic_expansion_svg.png 
Views:	35 
Size:	141.3 KB 
ID:	21099   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	European_Middle_Neolithic.gif 
Views:	23 
Size:	101.4 KB 
ID:	21100   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	europe-map1.gif 
Views:	21 
Size:	42.4 KB 
ID:	21101  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LaHoguette-earlyLBKMapScreen.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	88.2 KB 
ID:	21102  
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2010-08-26 at 18:05.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Wojewoda For This Useful Post:

    cadwallon (2010-08-26), Semitic Duwa (2010-08-26)

  13. #7
    Established Member
    puttin' in yer windies
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    1,567
    Gender
    Age
    28
    Y-DNA
    R-DF99
    mtDNA
    H3ap

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Well this is somethink I don't understand. Absolutely nothing in these R1b1b2 maps correlate visually with the maps of the spread of LBK.

    On the other hand I can see very strong correlation with Bell Beaker culture spread:
    I can see Bell Beaker being R1b1b2a1b* (S116/P312), R1b1b2 M269 is too old to be Bell Beaker as the Bell Beakers were around 2900-2500 B.C.

    ISOGG states:

    Haplogroup R1b1b2 (M269) is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1b2 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there.
    This page http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results states:

    M269 R1b1b2 (R1b1c) 9,500 ybp

    If it's 4000 years old that would place it around 1990 b.c. if it's 8000 years old that would place it at 5990 B.C. so we have to assume somewhere in the middle of those two numbers.

    Either way too old for Bell Beaker (as it can't really be 4,000 or even 5,000 years old because how can the parent clade be younger than the subclade i.e. P312/S116?).


    The Linear Pottery Culture "flourished ca. 5500–4500 BC" - wiki. That's right in the range of M269's age estimates if we exclude the mention of 4,000 and 5,000 ybp. Once those are excluded, as the parent clade cannot be younger than the subclade, we have a time range from 6,000 ybp to 8,000 or 9,500 ybp which is 7490 B.C. to 3390 B.C.

    This page:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    has S116/P312 at 4,500 ybp, which is 2490 B.C. which falls in the Bell Beaker range. Though I have seen other mentions of P312/S116 being about 1000 years older, though that was on Eupedia.

    Either way S116 is closer to Bell Beaker it seems than M269, and we really can't know anything concrete until these scientists get it together and get a final conclusion on the age of M269 so we can get an accurate starting point to work with. I am curious why this haplogroup is so difficult to pin when compared to others.
    Last edited by cadwallon; 2010-08-26 at 18:35.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to cadwallon For This Useful Post:

    Wojewoda (2010-08-26)

  15. #8
    Established Member
    Praise the Sun! Rochefaton's Avatar
    Last Online
    2017-04-07 @ 02:17
    Join Date
    2010-01-10
    Posts
    1,276
    Location
    Alabama, the beautiful
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R-L2*
    mtDNA
    T2b
    Race
    West Eurasian
    Phenotype
    Cromagnid
    Metaethnos
    Anglo
    Ethnicity
    American
    Phenotype
    Anglo-Sexy
    Politics
    Classical Liberal
    Religion
    Jah wont pay the bills
    United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    And some pictures.

    EDIT. Either I am reading these map incorrectly, but it seems to me that someone has taken these poeple from the Kazachstan and paruchuted them somewhere in the triangle Spain-British Isles-Netherlands.
    The Kazakhstan sample consisted of 23 Kurds, so God only knows how the forefathers of 3 of them made their way to that part of the world. The two samples from Turkey also had a few people that were R1b*; I think it was 4/611 between the two samples.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Connally View Post
    The dollar is our currency, but your problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Faber View Post
    If you put a gun to my head and said 'you must choose either Obama or Romney,' I'd say 'please shoot'
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    T2b, or not T2b, that is the question.
    What is greed?

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Rochefaton For This Useful Post:

    Wojewoda (2010-08-27)

  17. #9
    Established Member
    Your Friend
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-23
    Posts
    9,651
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a-Z282
    mtDNA
    H7
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Phenotype
    Barbarian
    Religion
    Crop Circles
    Poland

    Default

    Anybody got a copy of this? If so, gimme...

  18. #10
    Established Member
    Praise the Sun! Rochefaton's Avatar
    Last Online
    2017-04-07 @ 02:17
    Join Date
    2010-01-10
    Posts
    1,276
    Location
    Alabama, the beautiful
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R-L2*
    mtDNA
    T2b
    Race
    West Eurasian
    Phenotype
    Cromagnid
    Metaethnos
    Anglo
    Ethnicity
    American
    Phenotype
    Anglo-Sexy
    Politics
    Classical Liberal
    Religion
    Jah wont pay the bills
    United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Anybody got a copy of this? If so, gimme...
    Check your PM's in a few.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Connally View Post
    The dollar is our currency, but your problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Faber View Post
    If you put a gun to my head and said 'you must choose either Obama or Romney,' I'd say 'please shoot'
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    T2b, or not T2b, that is the question.
    What is greed?

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Rochefaton For This Useful Post:

    Polako (2010-08-27)

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R-P312 in Yorkshire?
    By cadwallon in forum y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 2010-04-18, 01:07
  2. Angellica Bell
    By windie in forum Classification Requests
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 2010-04-08, 20:10

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<